Episode #131: Getting Your Game Into Barnes & Noble with Chrissy Fagerholt
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Is your toy idea begging to see the spotlight? Do you have a game idea swimming around in your imagination? You may be a burgeoning toy inventor! However, if you are ready to fully flesh out your toy idea, brand, and marketing, you may be a toy entrepreneur. What is the difference between these two toy industry tracks? You will find out that and more on today’s episode of Making it in the Toy Industry.
Today’s guest is Toy Creators Academy alumni Chrissy Fagerholt. After a career as a floral designer for 17 years and a short stint as a school lunch lady, she now has a successful game out with Goliath, Friend or Faux. She has two more games coming out soon: Lunchroom and You Who. In today’s episode, Chrissy tells us about making the jump from toy inventor to toy entrepreneur. She explains a bit of her inventing process and tells listeners all about how she came up with a key element in one of her new games that makes it really fun.
She explains why the shift to toy industry entrepreneur happened, and where in the process of inventing a toy she starts to come up with marketing and branding ideas. She also describes a bit of the process of working with other artists to make her vision for her games come true. You will also find out how the Toy Creators Academy helped Chrissy to make more toy industry connections which led her to figure out how to make toy industry entrepreneurship work for her.
EPISODE CLIFF NOTES
Find out how Chrissy included “The Puzzle of You” in her latest game, Lunchroom. [00:07:25]
Learn about a money-saving toy manufacturing technique that could help you save on your next toy design [00:11:27]
Find out how Chrissy injected pop culture references into her game to make it even more amazing [00:14:40]
Learn how Chrissy puts together her toy inventor and toy entrepreneur sides in the product development process [00:18:08]
Find out the smart and daring thing Chrissy did at Target to see if her product would fit in [00:19:53]
Learn just how many times game inventors play their own games against themselves before bringing it to playtesters [00:20:56]
Find out the number one thing you want to hear from game playtesters [00:22:46]
Learn about the Astra toy show and why you should attend, especially as a first-timer [00:26:33]
Find out the benefits of being an entrepreneur and doing manufacturing, marketing, and branding yourself [00:34:53]
Learn why Chrissy partnered with a distributor as a toy industry entrepreneur [00:36:41]
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[00:00:00] Azhelle Wade: You are listening to making it in the toy industry episode number 131.
[00:00:17] Hey there are toy people, Azhelle Wade here, and welcome back to another episode of the toy coach podcast, making it in the toy industry. This is a weekly podcast brought to you by thetoycoach.com. Our guest today has spent 17 years as a floral designer, really enjoying the creativity and connection of that career. In fact, she says everything she's chosen to do throughout her different career choices always involved a way to connect with people, including both greeting card and invitation design. Eventually our guests today fell into the world of games and toys after a night out with some childhood friends where one of them said, let's play a game I just made up.
[00:00:58] A result of that night out with her friends was the game Friend or Faux, a game of ridiculously revealing questions that turned into a successful Kickstarter and eventually landed on the shelves of major retailers after being licensed by Goliath games. As a self-taught game inventor, she is the proud graduate of the Toy Creators Academy program through me, The Toy Coach, and she loves to work with other creatives that help bring concepts to life. I'd like to welcome to the show Chrissy Fagerholt. Chrissy welcome to the show.
[00:01:32] Chrissy Fagerholt: thanks, Michelle. I'm really excited to be here.
[00:01:35] Azhelle Wade: To start off in your little intro, I just gave, we talked about how you were a floral designer. You happened into this role of toys and games. I think you are a rising star. So I'm really well, honestly, you're already risen. Like when I first met you, I knew you were a rising star, but now you're just booming into the atmosphere. Let's talk a little bit about your current success and, then we'll get into how you got there. So what is your biggest win of the moment? Can you share that?
[00:02:01] Chrissy Fagerholt: My biggest win is I have two games coming out in June. And even before they actually hit the market, I found out that one of them is going to be on the shelves and Barnes and Noble, which is huge to me. So I'm super excited about that.
[00:02:18] Azhelle Wade: Can you share the two games? What they are?
[00:02:20] Chrissy Fagerholt: Yes. I have the Lunchroom game and also a game called You Who, which is the family version of my original game Friend or Faux.
[00:02:28] Azhelle Wade: So when you say they're coming out, if they're not both placed in stores, what do you mean? Will they be sold online .
[00:02:33] Chrissy Fagerholt: There'll be sold online, Amazon. Of course, barnesandnoble.com. And I'm attending the ASTRA show here in June and hoping to end up on the shelves of some specialty toy retailers. Who knows the sky's the limit. We'll see where it takes us.
[00:02:47] Azhelle Wade: Yeah, I love your Lunchroom game. I remember you sent me a sample and I was playing it. it's such a great theme. I think it fits so well with this nostalgic energy everyone has going And also because when you first came up with the idea of the pandemic was happening, kids weren't going to school and thought it was such a great fit for kids that missed that to have that. So now I'm curious to see how people react to the gameplay and the components and everything. I just love what you did.
[00:03:12] Chrissy Fagerholt: Into your credit for the Lunchroom game Azhelle, when I was originally came up with the idea, it was almost what it is now, except you're like, it's missing one thing it's missing it's got, there's something missing. And I was like, okay, let me think about this. Like, what is it that's not fully there? And ultimately it was the best part of the game now, which is the tater tots. So.
[00:03:33] Azhelle Wade: Tater tots. Yeah.
[00:03:34] Chrissy Fagerholt: I kind of taking that advice from you, went back and said, all right let's grab that attention to the buyer, but also the player. Make it even more Toyetic than it is, you know, on shelf and it's awesome. It's my favorite part of the whole game. It's so great. So thank you for that.
[00:03:51] Azhelle Wade: Oh, you're welcome. I don't know when we had that conversation. I'm not sure if it was like a private call during the course or after, probably after the program, because this was a while down the road.
[00:04:00] Chrissy Fagerholt: I would say it was close to the end or right after the program. I had pitched the idea and I had pitched it at a pitching event, maybe through Chitag. When it was all virtual. And I did not have the tater tot element at that point when I pitched And then you and I kind of started working together privately and just, figured out like, taking an idea that I had and I thought was great.
[00:04:23] Azhelle Wade: Yeah.
[00:04:24] Chrissy Fagerholt: But allowing an opinion to say, it's good, but it's missing something. And then going, okay, I'm going to listen to that. What is it? And it made a world of difference in the game.
[00:04:33] Azhelle Wade: Let's dive into that a little bit so people listening who have no idea what this game is can learn from this. So I feel like what we added was wow factor which is great because that's so often a, term in the toy industry that's so ambiguous. Everyone's like, what exactly does that mean? Right. So I like what you added was wow factor or one of the toyetic principles I call like surprise conflict. Just the moment where something unexpected happens and always have to be, a function like a mechanical funtion surprising where something flies up like that drone home game or something pops out like, don't wake daddy, that toy. For you it was more of a surprise action where you have to do something that is very different than the core game play. So for your game, could you explain, do you have like a quick description that would explain like the game play in the style of the game?
[00:05:25] Chrissy Fagerholt: Sure. It's actually, there is very light strategy to this game, but then of course there is luck. And, It added yes, a little bit of action to the game, rather than just kind of taking switching cards, moving things around, it really added in anticipation to the game. So it really kind of picked up that, all right I'm waiting for this to happen. And that's there's that element of kids or adults, or whoever's like To want to get that tater tot. And you know, people are fighting and we've heard a lot of hours scratching stuck by accident, just cause.
[00:05:57] Azhelle Wade: Oh.
[00:05:57] Chrissy Fagerholt: You don't to do that. But in addition, just even like, it helped with the theme of the game, because I mean, ultimately hot lunch, right? The tater tot is like the ultimate and I was like, I think this is going to be a good idea. This is what people are going to fight for and want both visually and physically. So it was just, like a win-win no pun intended. Yeah. For the itself.
[00:06:22] Azhelle Wade: So actually, let's, recap what the game is. So Lunchroom, the game, it has several components. It's primarily a card game, and then it's almost like a puzzle game mixed with a card game because you have this lunchroom tray, and, you're trying to fill up that tray. So it's almost like when you when you get a piece that matches all the spots on this lunchroom, tray, like filling in a puzzle almost. It's a good way kind about it. So then you are playing these cards, and you're waiting to get the hot food you're waiting to get, like, what is it like your sides? And you have to be strategic because you can only hold a certain amount of cards on your tray.
[00:06:53] But your goal is to fill every spot on the tray. So you've got to be strategic about cards you keep and hold. Little bit like poker, but, and then, and so the game play, especially the tray aspect was so toyetic in itself. So when you first showed it to me, I was like, yeah, it's really good. But it is, missing that something. Then you came back with a tater tots, which added this entire food fight element, which I think was already one of your cards. You just didn't have a physical food fight you had like a card food fight, like where it was like, right.
[00:07:25] Chrissy Fagerholt: Yeah, the original card actually had a different play to it. And kind of just adjusted it and actually made it into this food fight. And when you bring up the tray, which is a great idea, so it's not like a big board game or even a flat piece, it's a 3d Lunch tray, it has those five spots. So for a veggie, a fruit, a dessert, your main dish, and then the milk. And so, what's funny is I actually was a lunch lady for the school year pre COVID. I wanted to work part-time and I didn't want to, like, I wanted to be home for my kids. And I was like, you know what, I'm going to do this. I didn't necessarily want to be in the classroom. I had worked in restaurants my whole life. I was like, I can handle being a lunch lady. That's easy. So after that, it was kind of, that was really the catalyst. And then 2020 happened. And I was like, gosh, kids really wanted to be in school. And it just all kind of came together. But then at the same time, I mean, I grew up in school. That lunch trade looks the same as it did, 30 years ago. So.
[00:08:23] Azhelle Wade: So I've got to give a call back to the puzzle of you podcast episode that I did a while back, or maybe it was an episode where I just mentioned the puzzle of you, because that's what you just did, where it's finding all these different elements of your life experience and combining it with what you enjoy doing, which is creating games that bring people together. So I believe it's the toycoach.com/69. I think that's the episode where I mentioned the puzzle of you and just the fact that this game came out of you having an experience as a lunch lady you being a mom, seeing what your kids. are going through and just being a game designer by heart. Not by practice, just like, you wanted to do this and you kind of taught yourself, you combined it into something that is just so it's just genius. It's like, how does this not already exist. So good.
[00:09:08] Chrissy Fagerholt: Right. Well, and you know, when I'm designing games, I really stick to kind of these elements where I want it to be quick to learn because as player myself and watching people play. Wanted, you know, five rules or less.
[00:09:20] And I like relatable themes, but I also like to infuse humor to my games. So anything I create, even with these two or anything that I'm working on, it has to have those elements because I really want it to be, you know, you can pull it out or party quickly explain it. And it's, you're already having fun. You're not constantly checking the rules. You're not going back it's going. So I wanted it kids to be able to play it, adults, be able to play it also and enjoy it with kids, but adults can play it by themselves, but adults don't have to be there to kind of guide kids along. So there's, know, really try to stick to those things when I'm creating.
[00:09:54] Azhelle Wade: That's great. That's something you taught yourself. I don't even think I taught you that.
[00:09:58] Chrissy Fagerholt: Yeah.
[00:09:58] Azhelle Wade: That's That's great. Okay. So I want to talk a little bit about the design of this game, because I remember, I think early on, I, don't know if you were deciding to manufacture it yourself, or you were just trying to get some costing information so that you were more informed when you started to pitching it to companies that you were pitching a game that was feasible to produce for a reasonable price point and your concern was the tray. And I want to bring up this because so often it's just like, you don't know, what, you know, and I don't want other people's ideas to suffer because they don't know there is a more affordable way to do something. So I guess my first question for you is, did you end up making those trays vac form trays?
[00:10:35] Chrissy Fagerholt: I did.
[00:10:36] Azhelle Wade: Okay, cool. So when Chrissy first got costs, I think, I don't know, was the factory thinking they were going to open a mold for the trays. Is that where you'd start?
[00:10:44] Chrissy Fagerholt: Right. We were thinking actual plastic trays and my original and my prototype. I had the trace 3d printed, and of course we seem like this really great solid plastic tray, but when you're going through the costing elements of everything, it's not even just look it's weight and size the mold itself. So, after seeing a couple different, vacuum trade prototypes, I was like, you know what? It still looks great. You know, of course it's not usable and you would never put real food on it or sticking a dishwasher or anything like that, but it really still captures the element. And so it's just one of those places where I'm like, this is where I can save money and actually, feel happy about the decision.
[00:11:25] Azhelle Wade: Yeah. So basically for anybody listening, that might be a little bit lost. Instead of opening a mold and a mold is like imagine like a baking sheet with two sides, like if you were going to make a completely three-dimensional cookie, that it would essentially be kind of a mold in manufacturing. So like, but it would be made out of like metal, it's a giant tool and they inject hot plastic in it, and then the plastic dries and that makes your piece. So Chrissy's original idea was to create a mold so she could create almost a real mini lunch tray, like a real, like a realistic quality mini lunch tray that you might see at school. And we were going through her idea, I was like, you know, don't worry about that tray. I think she was worried about the cost and it had never even occurred to me to be worried about the cost.
[00:12:06] Cause when I first saw it, even though she gave me a 3d printed sample, I assumed that it would end up being a vacuum formed and in my mind, knowing how many, like we would do what, like 10 cents for some vacuum form trays that I've done in packaging. In my mind, I was like oh, this is fine. This is going to work out, but she didn't know. And I didn't realize that was kind of insider knowledge or knowledge you get through like, experience. So I say all that to say, like, have these conversations with the right people, with people that are experienced making these products, because in that quick conversation of her saying, oh, I'm really concerned about the price And me saying, oh, I have no idea why you're concerned about the price explain what you're concerned about.
[00:12:42] That's when I was able to say, oh no, you should not mold this like, if anything, you try to find this in the open market. And if you can't find it there you do a vacuum form tray where you just need like a simple, honestly, you can have like a wood mold that they're vacuum forming this over. And that saves so much cost and then you don't have to pay for a tool. You don't have to invest so heavily in plastic. You just need plastic sheets for them to make these molds out of, and it still looks, it still gets the vibe. What's most important is the feeling of the game. And you still have that at a lower cost, so you can sell right. Which is great.
[00:13:14] Chrissy Fagerholt: Yeah.
[00:13:15] Azhelle Wade: Now I want to talk about who designed that adorable tater tot. So when Chrissy first made her mock-up sample that we were all play-testing, she created her tater tots out of tape. Can you explain how you made your little tater tots originally?
[00:13:29] Chrissy Fagerholt: I took, kind of just a chunk of foam. And then I wrapped it in duct tape, but the duct tape had a look of tater tots. I don't know, describe it. It, you know, you can be a duct tape in it, all the themes. So I just took that duct tape and I wrapped it around the foan to have it look and give it that squishy feel.
[00:13:48] Azhelle Wade: Yeah. So I just want to say that to somebody who comes up with an idea, it doesn't have to be exactly what you envisioned in the first place. Like, ideally she knew she wanted it to be like, almost like a squish mellows type material, right? Like a squishy foam but she didn't have that. And she wasn't going to manufacture that for a test. So she took, was it just like floral foam?
[00:14:06] Chrissy Fagerholt: No. It was like, almost like a very thin foam that you use in packaging. I just had some around my house. And so I was able to kind of fold it into this round little shape and then take the tape around it.
[00:14:16] Azhelle Wade: Like foam core.
[00:14:17] Chrissy Fagerholt: Kind of like foam core, but more flexible.
[00:14:19] Azhelle Wade: Oh, okay. So Chrissy had a foam core like foam substance and wrapped it with a patterned duct tape but then when you went to production, somebody designed to really adorable tater tot and who designed that?
[00:14:31] Chrissy Fagerholt: It was a collaboration between me and Phil Alberton. So.
[00:14:34] Azhelle Wade: I love him. Yeah, okay.
[00:14:37] Chrissy Fagerholt: Had a visual in my head of what I wanted. He came up with a little bit of a drawing and I said, you know what, when you think of like all eighties, nineties, teen movies, well, first of all, every single one of those movies has an amazing like lunchroom scene, right? girls, Napoleon dynamite, all these things. And the hero of that movie is always the nerd. And ultimately It's the winner of this, this movie. And so I thought I want my Napoleon dynamite to beat that element. I want him to be the hero of the game, but I want them to have that kind of nerd, typical thing with the glasses and he's got a cute little smirk. And my motivation for that was obviously Napoleon dynamite. And I said, Phil, can you do this? And he said, yep. And he came back and it looked just like, perfect.
[00:15:19] Azhelle Wade: It's adorable.
[00:15:20] Chrissy Fagerholt: Awesome.
[00:15:21] Azhelle Wade: Okay. I, have to call out how you so well connected your product design and development to pop culture and more companies should be doing this, because to sit there and recognize how eighties, nineties movies have iconic lunchroom scenes. And who's the hero when I saw your finished tater tot, I didn't know why it felt so right. Like, I didn't know why I was like yeah, of course he should have glasses. of course he could, should look sassy. I didn't know why, but hearing your explanation I'm like, yeah that's why. Because it's like, embedded into my childhood. That's why it felt right. Cause I'm like yeah.
[00:15:55] Chrissy Fagerholt: And that's what I really wanted. I wanted, you know, when you see this, I want kind of that nostalgia, but at the same time, I want it to be like, even with the art. So I use this amazing artists that I found online. Her name is Ashley Duke. I explained to her, I was like, here is what I want. And I can sketch, I can draw. But I was like, when I'm too attached to a product, I'm to o perfectionist. Like I don't, it doesn't come out how I want it. So I gave her direction. I said, here's what I want. Here are my inspirations. the lunch lady from Saturday night live. I want it to look like this was drawn by a kid doodling in detention.
[00:16:27] I want all those things. And it was like, she crawled in my head and it's exactly what I was seeing. I don't think that happens very often because I've worked with other people where sometimes you have to go back and forth. She nailed it. It was like, yes. And I was like, I want like, you know, paper, I want it to look like real paper and let's throw some up on there and, do little drawings, like graffiti art, and she did it and she nailed it. And then I was able to take that to Phil also. And we just all pieced it together and it just like came out So great.
[00:16:54] Azhelle Wade: So let's talk about those illustrations. So when Chrissy first developed her idea, she like most inventors want to make it look like it's ready to sit on the shelves. And I'm always like, you know, where like, please don't spend too much money because we don't know if the idea is going to get placed. Like we don't know, don't invest all your money. Then I get Chrissy sample and I'm like, oh my God, this looks like it's ready to go on shelves. And my fiance saw the package come in and he was like, is this like someone else's artwork? Like that she used to make her mock up and I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Like this is her artwork. And he was like, oh wow, she really invested a lot into this.
[00:17:32] So we were freaking out for you by the way, freaking out like, oh my. but because you kind of did all that work upfront, you started as an inventor and then you switch over to the entrepreneur route. Now you had this like fully established, designed concept and brand. Were you nervous when you were going the inventor route that like, oh, I've invested all my time in, developing this artwork and if someone picks it up, they'll change it. And if no one picks it up I've wasted my money. And then when you went to in the entrepreneur route where you like, oh thank God I did that because now I'm ahead of the game. Like how did that whole play out?
[00:18:04] Chrissy Fagerholt: I will say I really do focus on the play first, before I get into the look. And that is handwritten cards, I buy blank cards online. I fill them in myself. I play play play. And a lot of times I'm playing by myself until I'm like, okay now I'm going to let kids play or whoever play kind of work out the kinks. And if I start to see like a glimmer of hope that this has potential, I'll start to think about like the artwork and how can I get this to work cause I really feel like it will add to the play experience. And with the Lunchroom, I really knew what I wanted and I knew how I wanted it to look. And I thought if I can get this down, if I can nail this. And if I'm just investing in just the art part, then it was worth it for me to go forward. Because it is very the look and feel of the game really is a part of the game. So in this case, it worked out. I don't do that every time because a lot, it's a risk, but it's an investment that may or may not pay out.
[00:19:02] Azhelle Wade: Yeah, But I agree. We had the Bop It inventor on a couple of episodes ago and he said with his invention, everyone always talks about how he made like a cardboard cutout and licensed, electronic toy invention with like a cardboard cutout and a video. What he said was that's because with that cardboard cutout in the video, you could get the experience and the feeling of the product. And that is kind of what happened for you too, like you needed, or you believed you needed that artwork and that foundation to get the full experience of game. So that's why it made sense and yeah, I agree. It totally gave me the vibes and the experience of nostalgia. I love it, the artwork is beautiful. Specialty toy retailers listening you're going to want it in your store. It's really, really well done and the packaging.
[00:19:48] Chrissy Fagerholt: For a family game for eight and up, really pops. It's not, you know, there is definitely, you know, when you go into a toy store and you see all the games on there and I'm doing this, I'm the crazy person that brought it into target just to see how it would look. And I sat it on.
[00:20:01] Azhelle Wade: I tell you guys to do that. I'm like.
[00:20:03] Chrissy Fagerholt: Slide it on the shelf. I was like taking pictures. And then, just to see how it compared, and I didn't stick with the usual color patterns you see, or cartoon images of kids necessarily. I really wanted that. I wanted it to stick out, but it isn't 18 year old, eight plus game. But I had groups of teenagers play and I have had just adults play and it's fun across the board. So I really feel like it can range from that whole group. And not just if an adult sees it goes, oh, that's that's for kids just the art.
[00:20:33] Azhelle Wade: Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely not It's got a great balance. So when you're doing your play testing, do you have internal checkpoints and what are they? When you're, playtesting by yourself to begin, do you have internal checkpoints where you're like yes, this Is working? What Is it you're looking for when you're doing your own play testing?
[00:20:49] Chrissy Fagerholt: Well, that's funny because it like started almost play like different characters, rubber, like I'm going to beat her over there, but it's really me. So I'm like, really am trying to like play each person's role. and then if I get caught up, if I'm like, and I pay attention to it, like if I'm like, oh wait, but now I can't do this person can't do this. I try to go back and re do the play, but find the element that went wrong. Do I have too many of one card? Do I have not enough of this card? If I keep playing an if, you know, is this never going to end? Have to get it to where it's going to end or does it end too soon? So there's, you know, all these things, but that it's like, play it by yourself, view we play it. And then have people play because then they're gonna pick up on this stuff that you're obviously missing.
[00:21:34] Azhelle Wade: How many times would you say you did that? Where you pretended to be other people and play the game?
[00:21:38] Chrissy Fagerholt: 50 plus, I mean.
[00:21:40] Azhelle Wade: I did it your game too. sat there and I was like, okay, I'm going to be player one and two and you be player four and five. And I was like, okay, I'm not going to have any strategy and then the player two is going to play it as if they want the meet cards. Like I was just trying to like, pretend like, I was different people.
[00:21:57] Chrissy Fagerholt: You know, I mean, there's a lot that you miss, but it's almost just that basic play pattern that you're just trying to nail. When you actually bring people in, they'll pick up on the things that you're like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I missed that. But that's why I play testing is so, so important and do it over and over and over again until you feel like you are not having to explain. You're not having to justify something. That's a good one. And that's really hard because when you're, play-testing, it's hard not to take what people are saying personally, but you have to just check your ego at the door, play it and take the good and the bad and then go back, refine it and then do it again.
[00:22:31] Azhelle Wade: When you're playtesting with other people with kids, what are you looking for that's different? Like do you play with them or, do you just watch?
[00:22:39] Chrissy Fagerholt: I have done both. So I will play with them if it's like, there's three of us. And I feel like there needs to be a fourth element. Or if they're younger and I know they meet need a little bit of guidance. otherwise I sit back, I let them play and then I take notes and then again, go back and kind of make any revisions I need. The best piece of advice that I ever got when it came to play testing was, somebody said to us, listen, everyone's going to tell you your baby's pretty. So, he's like what you want to hear at the end of people playing is I want to play again.
[00:23:09] Azhelle Wade: Mm,
[00:23:11] Chrissy Fagerholt: I'm like, ding, ding, ding, this is okay. That's not the case every time, you know, when you really, if, when they get done and they say, oh, I want to play it again, you know you have something. You may still have stuff to work on, that's really what you want to hear. And I have, when it comes to like games and, you know, or versus educational games or whatever, my element is really making sure the players are having a good time.
[00:23:38] Azhelle Wade: Yeah.
[00:23:38] Chrissy Fagerholt: Is it making them laugh? Is it making them have a little bit of competition? Is it doing that? And if I'm seeing that while they're playing, that's also a really good sign. So, but I definitely hear, do I want to play it again?
[00:23:48] Azhelle Wade: I love that.
[00:23:48] Chrissy Fagerholt: If don't then I gotta go.
[00:23:51] Azhelle Wade: Have you identified any like specific game mechanics or something that happens that makes them want to play again?
[00:23:57] Chrissy Fagerholt: That's definitely the anticipatory factor I really find is exciting. With the Lunchroom there's that light strategy piece. So what they kind of realize is like, oh, I have to trade this card, but am I going to trade with this person? Or am I going to trade with that person? But if I traded them that actually helped them announce. So there is giving them strategy in a very easy way to understand is good because it starts, they start to wise up and smart enough and they realize, oh, there's elements of this game that there's more than cards in the veggies and there's the fruit. So that actually was like, adds to that competitive nature. And it's not just a hundred percent luck, like say candy land or.
[00:24:36] Azhelle Wade: Yeah. What I liked about your Lunchroom game is that I could like lazy play. I can play without strategy and lose, but I could without strategy and it's still fun because of the tater tots. It's like still, even if you play and you're, like I'm just not in the mood cause I'm like tired and you play without strategy there's still a fun tater tot moment. So you still have fun, even if you, lose, there's like this energy. And then once you like, feel like you know what's going on, or if you're just in a more competitive mood, then you can layer in strategy with your play and it's just it's more exciting and fun that way. So I like games where I don't always have to because sometimes I'm tired.
[00:25:11] Like I don't need, to like, be having strategy, like sometimes ticket to ride is too much, you know, like sometimes it's too much, but. So yeah, I appreciate that. That there's like strategy moments and there's an option for strategy. Okay. I love this so good. Where am I going to go next? What about, oh, we haven't even talked about like who you are, who you were before games. We went a whole tangent, but since we're here, let's keep on going. So you're attending the ASTRA show for the first time. For those of you that don't know, what Astra is, it's the American Specialty Toy Retailing Association. I have a couple of podcasts episodes on it so search The Toy Coach Astra. You'll figure it out.
[00:25:50] It's basically a great place to go when you are a new toy entrepreneur, when you're trying to get your product out there into the specialty toy market, which is the market that helped launch things like silly bands. So don't sleep on the specialty toy market and specialty toy stores are the stores that are typically not chains or they're very small chains where they're not, really changed. They're more like, what do you call it Franchises. like mom and pop type toys stores. They know their neighborhoods and the people in them really well. They're very specific about the type of product that the people at their store want to see the care a lot about their customers. So it's not that mass market. Tell me how you're feeling about going to this show.
[00:26:25] Chrissy Fagerholt: I'm really excited. I'm equally as nervous as I am excited. I will be honest. It's the first time I've ever done a convention. And then course, it's out of state, which adds a totally different element. But it, fell at the perfect time. So, games are ready to hit the market at mid to late June. Fingers crossed shipping goes as planned and ASTRA marketplace just felt at that perfect time. And I thought, gosh, maybe I should just go and check it out. Just .
[00:26:52] Azhelle Wade: I know. I was like, why are you getting there.
[00:26:57] Chrissy Fagerholt: We're going to fly out there and you're gonna pay money. And then I was like, yeah, that's right. So they do it. And with ASTRA, if you're a first time exhibitor, if they offer a first-time exhibitors area in this marketplace and they make it more cost effective. And so I thought I just have to pull the trigger and I just have go. So I signed up and then I just went to work and I'm trying to build up my space, you get a five by 10 foot space. And you're, like I said, in this little area with everyone else, who's a first timer, which I think is exciting. I've heard it's, the hotels are sold out. They have like a huge crowd coming this year. And I think that's just because the pandemic is kind of leaving slightly, you know, making it a little safer for people to go. I'm just super excited that this year that this is all kind of coming together.
[00:27:45] Azhelle Wade: Yeah, no, I think you're perfect timing. You should be getting in that edit play magazine if you can. I'm excited for you. I can't wait to see you there. I'll see you at the ASTRA show. Yeah. So do you have any tips for people maybe that are well, yeah one. Do you think it's worth it so far? Like, do you have tips for people that might be thinking what you were thinking before? like, maybe I'll just go and check it out?
[00:28:06] Chrissy Fagerholt: I reached out to a few different people in the industry, just other toy and game designers who have done it, or have done a convention in general and just said, Hey, what is your advice? I reached out to you, I reached out to my manufacturers who go and they walk the show just to get like different of people, what should I do? How do I grab attention? how do I even write an order form? all of those little things and everyone has really good advice. And so I just took all that, wrote it down and I'm just following, you know, checking things off the list and making sure that I am prepared that I have everything I need, that I am, just ready. So I don't feel like I go and I'm unprepared and it just kind of falls down. I mean, obviously, you know, things can happen and I'm fully aware of that, but as much as I can do pre getting prepared is the best thing I can do.
[00:28:59] Azhelle Wade: I'm loving it I'm so excited. I can't wait. I'm going to see you there. I'm thrilled for you. It's be great. I'm really I'm height. I'm height. I know, you're stressed and you're busy, but I'm excited.
[00:29:09] Chrissy Fagerholt: Yeah. it's a lot, but it's, worth the effort. And I have a really, I mean, my husband is a. If I didn't have him supporting me and pushing me towards making this decision, it would be much harder, but he's just like, go for it, do it. You have to get it done. So it's great having a partner who's very supportive in my decisions and just like, do it.
[00:29:31] Azhelle Wade: Okay. I want to talk a little bit about how you got your game into Barnes and Noble, but I know we need to just back it up so that people can feel that this can be them too, you know, because I I think people might think oh my God, she's so connected. How is she? She's in Barnes and Noble? I could never do that, but what two years ago all you had you had Friend or Faux, right? in stores with Goliath. That was actually a relationship you kind of had through a friend, right?
[00:29:55] Chrissy Fagerholt: Well Friend or Faux it was interesting. And you wouldn't think it because basically the game is 250 questions. There's not scoring pad. There's not a lot to it, but none of us were in the industry. So we really wanted to kind of respect the process of what we're doing and not think that game design justice. Oh, overnight it's easy. It is not. So we took two years to do that game. It took a long time we had probably three or four different versions of the game as far as look. And when I look back to the original. I'm like, Oh, like cringing, like.
[00:30:29] Azhelle Wade: Really?
[00:30:31] Chrissy Fagerholt: But we have all the little samples we made just as like, you know, to look back and be like, look, we're how far we came. And we took it to CHITAG back in 2017 and we got some really good feedback and made some good connections there. Came back and totally changed the packaging. The game remained the same, but we just the packaging.
[00:30:51] Azhelle Wade: This is before you licensed it?
[00:30:53] Chrissy Fagerholt: Yeah, So we changed the packaging and then we said, let's just do a Kickstarter. Let's, you know, ignorance is bliss. We're like, oh, sure. Let's do a Kickstarter to see how this is. And it was a lot of work, but we were successful. So we had, a connection with somebody at Fred Meyer. I believe, I hope I'm telling this right. Who got us in connection with someone at Goliath. So And this was after the Kickstarter was successful. So we had some backing going into pitching our game to be like, hey, there's value to this game. We already.
[00:31:25] Azhelle Wade: How successful? Oh.
[00:31:27] Chrissy Fagerholt: Were was 25,000. Yeah, because what we did was we manufactured in the states. Because we were new, someone said for your first time, it makes things a little bit more difficult is more cost-effective to do it out of the country. But for you guys, you might want to try this. So we were like, all right so we had to probably double our end goal. We worked, worked, worked. I mean, we were contacting everybody. We knew we were posting every day and it worked out. So, you know, it's kind of, they say like luck is when preparation meets, you know.
[00:31:56] Azhelle Wade: Opportunity.
[00:31:57] Chrissy Fagerholt: So that's really how that happened. And Goliath was starting a games, adults play line at the time. So they were looking for games for 18 and up. So all the pieces were just aligning. So as much as luck. It was combined with really hard work. So if you get an opportunity to make a connection, take it, run with it and then follow through because that's really how we ended up, getting in touch with Goliath and just making that connection and that partnership workout.
[00:32:26] Azhelle Wade: So after that game was licensed, it was doing well, your friends were like, no, Chrissy, we will never do this again. You were like, were I want more, I love this.
[00:32:37] Chrissy Fagerholt: They, so between the four of us, I mean, they all had their careers and they that was really fun. And to be able to look back and be like, I grew up with these girls, we lived in four different states. We were able to come back and make this game and then see on the shelter. Target was like enough, right done. We're done.
[00:32:53] Azhelle Wade: Yeah.
[00:32:54] Chrissy Fagerholt: I really enjoyed the process. I think I've got more in me. And then what really led to me really pushing forward is when we had Friend or Faux, when we were play-testing it, after it was on the market, we kept having people go. We want a family version. We want a family version. My kids wanted a family version. So I was like, all right. So then we created the family version, but we were like, does Friend or Faux family really translate? And again, thinking about shelf, how do we make this look like it's going to do well on the shelf and kids would want to play. Totally changed it. It's now called You Who it's the other game that's going to be at Astra.
[00:33:28] We had an element in the game, which was a BS card and we wanted to take that instead of saying you're full of BS, or we were like, you're full of baloney. How do we make this funny? And that's how we kind of got our baloney squishy element in there to add like, kind of like an action to the game again. But the game itself stayed the same. And so that kind of was the catalyst to that. And then I was like, I still have other ideas on me, which led to the lunch room and you've seen a lot of my ideas. I have pitched, but these two I'm like these ones are ready. These are the ones I have confidence in to put my own finances in. I will do it.
[00:34:04] Azhelle Wade: Yeah. So now you're making me think about the big question that popped up in our Facebook group recently. We have a private Facebook group for graduates and current students of toy Creators Academy, and someone posted, Laura I believe, that they're struggling with being an inventor versus being an entrepreneur. And now you've been an inventor. You started as an inventor and then you pitched a lot like at the TCA, at virtual pitch events, you've pitched, like I don't even know probably dozens of companies, but you switched over to entrepreneur. Why did you make that switch? And how has that struggle been for you? Like how do you feel about that entrepreneur versus inventor struggle?
[00:34:39] Chrissy Fagerholt: Okay. So when we, like I said, with Friend or Faux, everything really just kind of fell into place, even though it was a lot of work. We did not realize that getting licensed was as hard as it is. So I think there's a 3% chance of a company licensing your game. And a company as big as Goliath. It's it's a huge company. So we were just like, oh, what? So when I started pitching and pitching to companies like Hasbro and Mattel and Spin Master and, you know, some smaller companies, it was a bit of like, oh, this isn't as easy as I So I realized, it wasn't like they were coming back with feedback or you're saying no, maybe yes or whatever that my ideas were bad. They were like either it's not what we're looking for right now. We really like it, but this, this or that.
[00:35:29] And so I kept getting these responses and I thought, okay, I have all these games. What do I do? So eventually I just said, you know what? I can either pitch, pitch, pitch, and wait for someone to give me the yes or I give myself the yes. And I just gave myself the yes and I'm like, I'm going forward. But a part of that is because I pitched to the distributor through one of your pitch events. And I thought, this is how I want to foray into being an entrepreneur. I can go a hundred percent in, do all the manufacturing, myself, do the story and the shipping, the selling, everything. Or I can use the distributor who helps with the storing, the shipping, the selling, you know, kind of take off some of that pressure.
[00:36:06] Azhelle Wade: Yes.
[00:36:07] Chrissy Fagerholt: And then tip the waters a little bit with only two games. I'm confident in, and you're maybe not making as much as you would, you know, like a hundred percent of
[00:36:15] Azhelle Wade: profit.
[00:36:15] Were all in.
[00:36:15] Chrissy Fagerholt: But I'm definitely making more licensing and then splitting that licensing cost with partners. So it was, a safer place for me to land starting off on that entrepreneur route.
[00:36:27] Azhelle Wade: Yeah. So Chrissy is doing a deal with a distributor, a PSI who have talked about on this podcast, also Googled toy coach PSI to listen to that episode. But they will essentially, like, she said, work with you and and, mitigate some of that risk, that financial risks, they have the connections already and then you're paying for the storage and you're still paying for the goods. But not having to to do like the logistics all alone, not having to like plan the sales meetings, not having to have those relationships is So helpful for someone just starting out, especially when you have the bomb ideas. You've researched the amazing illustrators you've built the product and You just need the, help getting it over the finish line. they are incredible.
[00:37:05] I feel there will be more companies coming out to do what they do in the future, just because it is such a brilliant business model. I hope like in the doll category, I hope in the plush category, we see people that are focusing on those other categories and offering services like this as well, because that would be so helpful for all the students of TCA. So that would be great. So yeah, I'm thrilled. I'm thrilled with that. And what about the internal struggle of like going back and forth? Like, did you just feel it wasn't worth your time anymore to pitch the ideas? Or did you feel, I don't know, Like how did you deal with that, internally? like cause Laura, I guess something in Laura's post, she was like really struggling.
[00:37:41] Chrissy Fagerholt: Yeah. well, I'm I still pitch, I some other ideas. If I have the opportunity, I'll, I'm working on new ideas. I don't throw away my old ideas. I shelve them because you just, you never know what a company is going to need when they need it. Attention to like wishlist or trends and all the things and say, Hey, I already have something that I did a year ago. I'm going to pull it out again and then pitch it again. So I'm still pitching is it the, I hate to say easy, but it is, you know, you pitch the idea. If they license it, they take it and go.
[00:38:12] Azhelle Wade: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:38:13] Chrissy Fagerholt: There's a lot. There's a, I mean, you could do a whole show on that too. Like with, but, I still would love the opportunity to work with other companies and have them licensed my ideas. So I'm still pitching, we'll see how you, who in the Lunchroom go to say, oh, I did make the right decision or is there an opportunity that if it does well, a company's like, Hey, we want to license this now. And then I'll be like, pretty woman, big mistake. Huge.
[00:38:38] Azhelle Wade: A big mistake you'd be like great. That'll be a 7% license.
[00:38:42] Chrissy Fagerholt: Yeah.
[00:38:44] Azhelle Wade: The dream. That's the dream.
[00:38:46] Chrissy Fagerholt: You know, I get it. These companies like they are investing their money on you they can see, Hey, all right, she's put in the work. This game does have legs. Then that makes sense that they're like, thank you for proving your concept. would love to now license it. the chances of pitching and having a company like, Yes. Oh my gosh. I mean, it is rare, but you have to have like, blowing mind idea that they haven't seen. And it's the odds of them not seeing some form of what you're pitching is really rare.
[00:39:16] Azhelle Wade: Yeah.
[00:39:17] Chrissy Fagerholt: But you just have to have that, like Tufts skin take the no, as not like a negative, like I'm really working hard, even like with all the fear of going to ASTRA, I'm really trying to use all those nos as like.
[00:39:28] Azhelle Wade: Yes. Yeah.
[00:39:30] Chrissy Fagerholt: Rent, like it. Like, this is going to make me work harder. Okay. So maybe I do need to make something different, you know, you said it's missing something. I didn't go screw you, Michelle. This is I said. All right. What is it? But know that in play testing, what a lot of people want to do too, is give you their ideas. And sometimes thank you. You never know what someone's going to do or say that actually might make your game better. You know, just take everything, write everything down, use what you think is going to make it better. And then, know, same with, you know, someone telling, you know, why did they tell you? No.
[00:40:04] Azhelle Wade: I honestly even think this through, with the program, whenever somebody is like on the fence And doesn't join, I try to turn that around to Okay. I didn't communicate something clearly. There's some way that I didn't communicate What the benefit is here to. I need to do better in communicating that in the future, because I know like this is what they might want or what they need to proceed. So yeah, just turning around those nos and those missed opportunities to being better. Like how can you be better? well, this was a great conversation. Oh, I want to end, I have to, end with my with my questions. Hold on.
[00:40:37] Chrissy Fagerholt: Okay.
[00:40:37] Azhelle Wade: I've got closing questions. Okay. So you gave us some great advice. What is the best advice that you've received maybe most recently?
[00:40:46] Chrissy Fagerholt: Well, in addition to what I said earlier about having, you know, hearing those magic words of having, I want to play it again. I mean, I can't stress that one enough. something as simple, actually I had my husband repeat it. He's like, you know, you miss all the shots you don't take right now. And to be completely transparent, I get it it's a financial risk. To everyone listening. I don't have that money sitting in my checking account. This was a decision that we worked out together and said, are we going to come up with this money somewhere else?
[00:41:13] So Whether it's a loan from the bank, you are using credit, you're using your savings. You're refinancing. Like we had to make that decision. So, Really be prepared in that, you know, I work a part-time job to cover costs, you know, other associated. So it's a hustle, right. So, you know, just hearing people like, even just telling me, like stick with it, check your ego. Don't worry about like what people are going to say. You're not going to please everybody just go forward. You're going to find your audience and stay in that.
[00:41:44] Azhelle Wade: Love that. And my final question, what toy blew your mind as a kid or what game blew your mind as a kid?
[00:41:51] Chrissy Fagerholt: Oh, gosh. Okay. This is the most simple answer, but I, for as far as games, I love candy land, but the reason I loved candy land is visually.
[00:42:00] Azhelle Wade: Oh.
[00:42:01] Chrissy Fagerholt: I just loved the way it looked. I just, it was. I loved it. I just thought, oh my God, I wish this was like a real life thing.
[00:42:09] Azhelle Wade: What really? That's interesting.
[00:42:12] Chrissy Fagerholt: But as far as like toys, I mean, I was like, my little pony was my jam gem and the holograms I loved. I mean, like is.
[00:42:22] Azhelle Wade: That is funny, because your designer and style now is so different than everything you just described.
[00:42:29] Chrissy Fagerholt: Was just like that. Okay. Why am I attracted to this? Like, you know, when I think of like, Jemena holograms, like I was more into her than I was Barbie and a part of it was that kind of like it, you know, on the edge rock element and it was different. And then, you know, when it came to canyon land, it wasn't like. You know, an educational based game. It was about candy and sweets and it looked, you know, when you're really little you're attracted to that, like, just something I could play easily. Well, that, of course, as you get older, you have like, Scattergories and taboo and trivial pursuit. We always played trivial pursuit. Yeah.
[00:43:03] Azhelle Wade: Well, thank you for sharing. We're going to put a link to your favorite toys, and games with the show notes. of course, Chrissy. Thank you so much the podcast today. This was a great conversation.
[00:43:16] Chrissy Fagerholt: My gosh. Thank you for having me any time.
[00:43:18] Azhelle Wade: Oh, and where can people follow you, connect with you or purchase your game?
[00:43:23] Chrissy Fagerholt: So you can follow me on Instagram and TikTok at EAP toys and toyandgames.com. please reach out to me anytime. I would love to give advice if I have any to offer or just even shot, through your process. And I'm like working and building my content right now for social media. So I hope you like what I've got, so follow me there. And I'll post when the games are officially ready for sale.
[00:43:50] Azhelle Wade: Okay. Great. Thank you so much, Chrissy. Have a great one.
[00:43:54] Chrissy Fagerholt: Thanks.
[00:43:55] Azhelle Wade: Well toy people there you have it. My interview with Chrissy Fagerholt, alumna of Toy Creators Academy. And I've gotta say Chrissy is a star student who push and push to continue learning and growing during the program. Chrissy just went to her very first toy trade show with her game products. And that was the Astra marketplace. The Astra marketplace is the perfect place for someone looking to break into the specialty toy market, much like Chrissy is doing. If you wanna learn more about the Astra marketplace, head over to thetoycoach.com/85, because that episode is all about that marketplace and more. Today with Chrissy, we talked about a lot of things. One being different ways to develop game mechanics that really catch the eye of the people playing your games and the buyers that might be interested in them.
[00:44:53] Chrissy brought up a really great feature that she likes to pay attention to, which was anticipation in her game play. So I want you to think about how you can create anticipation in a game idea that you might currently already have. We also talked about saving money on your toy or game designs. Chrissy at first didn't know that she could make a vacum tray for her product and thought that the product itself would be too expensive. Just having a conversation with somebody who's knowledgeable in this space and expressing to them, your concerns might uncover an easy solution that you wouldn't have even thought of. So don't be afraid to share some parts of your idea with the right people. Chrissy also talked about how she actually put her product on the shelves at target to see how it would fit into the mix. You wanna do that?
[00:45:47] I know it might feel silly walking in with your prototype sample, but I'm telling you, when I worked in the toy field, I would do this too. It's great to see your product against other products in the space for sizing, but also to make sure that the color pops on the shelf. Now you may be wondering how a brand new inventor. Like Chrissy managed to get her product into Barnes and Noble. If you miss that part in this episode, you can learn more about what it's like to work with a distributor to get your, to game into retail. By listening to episode number 72 of this podcast. So head over to thetoycoach.com/72, to learn all about. Now, if you love this podcast, but you haven't already left a review. What are you waiting for?
[00:46:38] Your reviews mean so much to me. I get an alert on my phone every time a new one comes in and I've gotta tell you, seeing a new positive review keeps me motivated to come back week after week and provide valuable toy insights, interesting interviews and inspire you with new ways to think about marketing or creating your toy product. As always thank you so much for spending this time with me today. I know that you've got a thousand things to do and that there are a ton of podcasts out there. So it really means the world to me that you spend the time and tune into this one. Until next week. I'll see you later toy people.
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