Episode #19: Changing The Game with Pictionary Creator, Rob Angel

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As of today you might not be in the toy business. You might be in advertising, you might be a school teacher, or you might be a waiter, and the idea of being a toy inventor or a game inventor may have never crossed your mind until this very moment. Today's guest on Making It in The Toy Industry is Rob Angel, the creator of the highly popular family board game of quick draw, Pictionary.

At age 21, Rob worked waiting tables in Seattle when he dreamed up the word guessing game now known as Pictionary. With focus and passion Rob raised capital, built a team and figured out how to market and sell his game all over Seattle, and eventually the world. Rob chats with The Toy Coach about what it was like starting out all those years ago and that path to finding his Aardvark. Rob joins The Toy Coach in a valuable conversation about building a team around a dream, and the importance of staying focused on your vision. In this episode Rob Angel discusses the 3 biggest game changers on his path to building Pictionary and inspires MITTI listeners with his words of advice.

If you want to hear exactly what Rob has to say, you'll have to pop your earbuds in and take a listen.

• Mentioned In This Episode

  This episode is brought to you by thetoycoach.com

  Connect With Rob Angel On Social:

  IG: @therobangel / FB: @therobangel / LinkedIn

  Click Here To Get Rob Angel's New Book, Game Changer.

• Episode Transcript

  Azhelle 00:00 You are listening to Making It in The Toy Industry, Episode Number 19. Intro/Outro + Jingle 00:07 Welcome to Making It in The Toy Industry, podcast for inventors and entrepreneurs like you. And now your host Azhelle Wade. Azhelle 00:17 Hey there toy people Azhelle Wade here and welcome back to another episode of Making It in The Toy Industry. This is a weekly podcast brought to you by the toy coach calm. Today I am joined by the creator of the International best selling board game of quickdraw. With just a legal pad in his hand and an idea in his mind, this courageous inventor never lost sight of what he deemed his destiny. Having no experience or connections in the toy industry, he paved his own path to success. Toy people. I am so excited to say that Today my guest is the creator of Pictionary. Rob Angel, welcome to the show. Rob. Rob Angel 01:03 Azhelle, thank you for having me. I'm so glad you could be here. Azhelle 01:08Now, Rob, you have a new book releasing June 2, am I right? You are. It's called Game Changer game changer. And I just I want to start the conversation by talking about how much I thoroughly enjoyed reading your book, and just reading through your story. And I want my listeners to know that this book is essentially a blueprint for development and sales and marketing in any industry really. And what I love is that you don't just block out the steps that you took in your journey, but you give something that's just even more valuable. And I noticed what that was, was that you talked about how you got things done. You talk about the words that you said the risks that you took and the moments where you like, faked it till you made it. And that's what I think my listeners are going to love about your book. So I wanted to start out and just have you talked about your background because I know you started out in sales. And I want to know if you think that that helped you on your Pictionary journey. Rob Angel 02:12 We'll think I'm chuckling because I have to admit, when I was in sales before Pictionary, I wasn't a very good salesman. Yeah, no, no, I have to have to be upfront about that. But the reason was, as I look back, is that I wasn't passionate about what I was selling. Right? I should have thought what I was doing. And so it was a job. And a job only became less than that. And so I wasn't motivated. And it showed in my work and my performance. Azhelle 02:45 Gotcha. So what happened when you finally got to pitch something that you were passionate about what happens like the first time you had a sales call for Pictionary? Rob Angel 03:00So yeah, I it was my job within the company, the three partners to sell Pictionary and I could sell restaurant food when I was waiting tables, so I knew people. And so I get all excited. And I'm going to make my first picture your sales call, but I didn't overthink it. Right? I just spent Okay, I'm just going to get started. So I put the game under my arm, but my sample bag and I went to the universe University of Washington bookstore, right. And so I get to the store and I'm all excited and it's 80 degrees and I'm wearing my only clothes. All you know, wool sweating. I got this, I walk up to the front door, guess what? I don't have my sample. Azhelle 03:43 No, oh, no. Why? Rob Angel 03:47 Rule number one, bring a sample. And so I went back to the car and do my sampling of course. The doors were locked. Azhelle 04:01No, stop it. Rob Angel 04:03 No it gets better. And the car was still running. Azhelle 04:08 Oh my God. Rob Angel 04:11I was so nervous. But I left the car running so I finally-- I get through, get in the backseat. And I walk in. And the woman says, Okay, let's let's show the game over here in the perfume counter. And the perfume counter. I didn't know what to expect. So I get over there and the fumes are, you know, the perfume was making me a little nauseous. And I'm starting to head soon. Oh, no. Well, but then I'm thinking, why am I at a perfume counter in a bookstore? Like, there's, there's perfume, and there's mugs and there's towels. I filed that one away for my next sales call. Okay, so I give her my spiel. And she starts asking me questions. I couldn't answer. I never made a sale Pictionary sales call, right? advertising those shipping labels. And so she took the pad out of my hand. She filled it out herself, right? handed it to me and said, Hey, send me the six games. Good luck. And that was it. Wow, that was my first sales call and success. I mean, you must have known right off the bat that you I mean, you knew from college that you had something special, but at that moment when you made that sale, you must have known this is this is going somewhere. Yeah, that was that first. validation. It was fun. My partner's newest fun, my friends played it. But for somebody some retail, give me $90 for six games. That was a big deal. That was a pat on the head. I really need it. Azhelle 05:46 So let's Okay, let's back up. Let's talk about how you first came to the invention of the game. I don't want to give too much away because you really spell it out so nicely in your book. So why don't you tell my listeners a little bit about how the game came to be not to give away, you know, the whole first half of the book, but give them a preview. Rob Angel 06:06Well, let's see. I always knew I was going to be an entrepreneur. Right. But I was kind of forced into it. I wanted to be like my dad, you know, he was a businessman and he ran a company. That's what I want to do. Mm hmm. Well, he got fire, just random, almost fire. And I decided at that point, I was 18 years old. I was never going to work for somebody else, and be beholden to their whims. I was going to be not very good, my own thing. So I was always open. My mindset was open to experiences open to finding that that thing that resonated with me four years later, living with three buddies after college, and one of them says, Hey, do you want to play charades on paper? What's that? Well, we got words out of the dictionary. Great. So we played and I had to have so hit ball. It was amazing all night long playing this silly game. Well, my aha moment happened, I going, Okay, this is something I can work with. This is something I want to bring to people. And that was it just just just wanting to have fun. And then it turned into a life changing situation. Azhelle 07:16 That's amazing. And what I love is also one of one of the things that's very evident in your book is that you followed your instincts, like you had a gut feeling that this there was something special in that play pattern, and you followed it, and you and you developed it. And then when you brought on your partners, it seems like with each of them, you also had a gut instinct about who to work with and why you needed them. And I think that's something my listeners really need to hear because so many entrepreneurs tend to go at it alone. So how did you come to the decision that you needed partners and how did you know they were the right partners for you? Rob Angel 07:53That is a really, really good question because people kind of go past that with partners, but right their intrical and intrical for my success. And I like to say the smartest guy in the room. Because I know I'm not the smartest guy in the room. Right? I know, I know what I not good at. But I know what I'm good at, right? marketing and sales. I mean, these things are things I could, I could manage. But I wasn't good at graphic artists and I was a graphic artist. And I wasn't good at running a business. I didn't want to I could. So I needed to find those parts. Those, those pieces. Now, nowadays, you can find, as you will an account online, you can find graphic artists, right. But that's just half of it. For me, I needed collaboration. I needed partners. I needed somebody I could bounce ideas off of, I needed to get somebody else involved so we could flesh out ideas. And in the backdrop to that was vision, a shared vision. Azhelle 08:59 Right. Rob Angel 09:00 We all three of us knew what we were after. We all knew what the vision was not what the goal was right? But the vision, the vision was very simple. Yeah, we just, we just wanted to recreate the fun that I had with my friends in a game. That was it. That was the vision, and we don't lose sight of that. Azhelle 09:21 That's so important. And I feel like today's economy is such a gig economy, when you're freelancing, that a lot of people have an idea and they just hire help, but they don't partner. And that partnership. I mean, if you when you guys get this book, when you read this book, you'll see there are a lot of points in the development and the sale of Pictionary, where each partner played a huge role in the success of the product in the game. They would make decisions based on passion, and they fight it out. And when you're just hiring help when you're hiring extra hands and you're not getting a partner, you're missing out on that huge peace, that commitment, that vision like Rob is saying, Rob Angel 10:04 Yeah, absolutely. And one of my friends works for Microsoft as entrepreneurs and I asked her what is the one thing? The main reason entrepreneurs fail? Without hesitation? They think they can do it all. Azhelle 10:23 That hits close to home. Yeah, it's true. Rob Angel 10:28 You need to know your limitations. accentuate the positives, know your superpower. But when you when you don't take advice direction, get a mentor, all these things that, you know, deep down, I think we all know, but I lived it and it worked out. I I knew what I needed. And I got the people and the things necessary to make it happen. And I I had to put my ego aside many times. That was okay because it was all for the benefit of Pictionary in the business? Not me. Azhelle 11:03 Right. What I want to talk about so much in the book, but I don't want to give too much away. But what what you did in the in the beginning of with your first set of samples, your first thousand samples, you really built-- a need and a want for Pictionary. You built brand loyalty, you built up the brand within us within Seattle. Right? And what I love about that is it's like you guys kept it small, as long as you could. And I just think that that process, it's just beautiful to read and watch it evolve and grow because I feel like today, people want to have an idea. They want to go to a show. They want to get the hundred thousand dollar order right off the bat. But what's really beautiful to watch is the evolution just like the bit by bit building in your story. Rob Angel 11:56 Thank you, I appreciate that. Yeah, we didn't take the easy road. As, as I call it my 17 year startup, right 17 year startup. Azhelle 12:10 Oh my god. I mean, yeah. But today, people are so enamored with this idea of overnight success, but there is no actual overnight success. It's just that you didn't know about this person who's been doing this thing for seven years. 10 years. 17 years. Rob Angel 12:25 No, and I didn't know I had it. Did. I? Yeah. Azhelle 12:31Oh, that's a good question. Oh, that's a good question. Okay. Rob Angel 12:35 I've never I've never thought of that before. Azhelle 12:37 Yeah.Rob Angel 12:38 That's interesting. I never it wasn't even that I doubted myself. Right. But I never really sat, sat and thought, okay, rah, can you really do this right? Now I just kind of jumped in. And it worked. And I kept going, moving forward, one foot in front of the other. And when there was challenges, of course, there were...We went around them, we figured out. But it all came back to the love of the product and the vision. Azhelle 13:08 I think that it's so funny because had someone told you, Rob, this is a great idea, but it's gonna take 17 years to get it off the ground, would you-- Rob Angel 13:18 I would have questioned the whole process. Yeah. Azhelle 13:22 But which is a really good point. So yeah. So one of the stories I tell and really was one of the turning points of Pictionary to this very point we're talking about, about looking at the big picture. If somebody had told me it would take 17 years before I would own it might have been too much, right. So when I decided to work on picture, I was a 23 year old waiter. Rob Angel 13:51 And I didn't have any game experience. And I really didn't know what I was doing. But I wanted to do this thing. I wanted to do this and so immediately, I started looking at the big picture. Oh my gosh, to get it on the shelves, I mean the business plan marketing plan, I'm going to need employees and all these, these things that honestly overwhelming, right? completely overwhelming. And so I shut down. Right I've got this big idea. I'm gonna do this. And I didn't do it. So I had to I had to take a break. So I put myself in timeout, as I call it. I went for walks, I went to movies with friends, I played foosball, anything. But think about Pictionary. And so a couple weeks later, I went back, open mind not thinking about the problem and I thought, Okay, stop looking at the big picture up, break it down to its smallest, simplest task and that was the word list. Making words. So okay. everything I needed without overthinking. It was right there. And perhaps pad of paper, a dictionary and a pet. And I want them back to your heart. And I remember like yesterday, I opened it up and open up the dictionary. And the first word that made sense was aardvark. Yeah. aardvark right. Such a good part. Yeah. I write down the word aardvark. But, but just writing one word was so important. That's how you got started, right? Because in that moment, I was no longer a waiter. Right? I labeled myself a waiter. But in that moment, I was a game inventor. I gave myself a new label. I still had created a game yet. I had done any production. But my mindset said, I am a waiter and I excuse me, a game inventor. I convinced myself of that. Okay, what's a game inventor gonna do? Oh, yeah, I'm gonna do a second word. I wrote a second word, the third word, fourth word, and it just works. It kept building and building from there. So Pictionary didn't start with this, this grandiose plan to take on the world would be the biggest selling board game in the world. Mm hmm. We started with writing down the word, aardvark. It's crazy. And what's your your movement, find your aardvark, find your aardvark. It's taking those small, small steps without getting overwhelmed. And when we're doing pictures doing Pictionary, we didn't know what was gonna happen. One minute to the next. We didn't know the plan one minute to the next. We didn't know how we're going to put the game together. But we just kept painted one foot in front of the other. We just kept going forward. And that's all started from find your artwork. Because when you find that passion, when you find that thing that just resonates so profoundly with you. You just start taking steps without thinking about Yeah, that's the thing. Azhelle 16:57 Yeah. Rob Angel 16:58 Every time you self analyzing and start thinking about things. That's what we get, as I call it paper locked. Azhelle 17:05 Yeah, you get hung up and you feel like it you just get overwhelmed. I tell my friends the same thing. They they say, how do you do so much? I'm like, you just need to break it down step by step, you break it down. It's almost like you write what you have to do out on a list, and you only pay attention to the very first thing, and everything else. It'll come. Rob Angel 17:23 Right. I didn't even write down just the first thing on the list. Just the first thing. That's the first thing. It's about accomplishing tasks. Azhelle 17:32 Yes, yes. And, okay, there's this is a bigger question. This is, um, I read in your book that you met with the CEO worlds of wonder, and this is this is something that I think every game inventor struggles with the struggle of, do I want to have a company? Do I want my own toy game company? Or do I want to license my product and collect royalties, you know, mailbox, money, hat, what have you. So I just want to hear about what you thought about that experience, I want to hear you tell the story. I was reading it, but I would love to hear it come from your mouth. Rob Angel 18:07 Well, that little time of life of the whole Pictionary journey was pivotal. Azhelle 18:14 Right. Rob Angel 18:15 It was it was top top three, key moments. Pictionary became so big, so fast, we couldn't scale it on our own. We didn't have enough financing. We couldn't have enough capital, and we couldn't find it. So we had to license which basically means we gave somebody else the rights to manufacturer for us, and they pay us a royalty and pays money. So we had two different companies worlds of wonder, ratty, talk to us. worlds of wonder, came to us, and the first thing out of the President's mouth was you want to make money, or do you want a game company? Mm hmm. And thought of it that way, right? Azhelle 18:56 Are those the same thing like what-- Rob Angel 18:58Exactly. It will make money if we-- I was a little confused, right? But he put the thought in our head, what was it that was driving us? What was it that we were after? And that deal did not go through. But we're thinking now that we better find out and articulate what our vision is, right? We better figure out why we're in this business in the first place. Right? And so we decided, between the three partners without hesitation, the vision was picture and all our decisions would be based on that. We now have a meeting with Milton Bradley, the biggest board game company in the world, right? They come to us with a deal. And as we walk into the the room, the marketing guy slaps a board and a box down on the table. We're kind of looking at it startled, and it was I used to this day-- I don't know what it was. We called it the actual kind of-- Azhelle 20:01 I know! That part of the book. I was like, Oh! Rob Angel 20:04 We looked at it and we said like it was like you said like, what? Azhelle 20:11 Well, you know, he's like, it's like Christmas to him. Oh, yeah. Oh, well, we're gonna do for you and Pictionary we're going to, we're going to change the packaging. Okay, we're gonna change the words alone. We're gonna change the rules. What? No. Oh, I swear, we're going to do all these things. We're going to sell more picture. Well, we've got past VAT. Mm hmm. And they actually is pretty good deal. Biggest royalty rated ever given anybody? Yeah. guarantees, but the one thing they wouldn't put in writing was they wouldn't change the packaging without a written approval now, but that's what was so important. You guys. That was our vision. Yeah, I am. I'm a 26 year old waiter. Still waiting tables, right? I'm driving an old car right? And I'm looking at this contract. All I had to do was sign this contract and my life changes. Everything I've been dreaming for this point, everything I want is right there on that piece of paper. Right? didn't sign it. Sign it. Rob Angel 21:17 How do you get your partners to agree not to sign up. Azhelle 21:21 They were on the same page, same page partners when you're honest. Rob Angel 21:26 We never had a disagreement. They knew it was the right thing. Because we knew that as long as we took care of our vision, which was Pictionary, it would take care of us. So if we mess with it, if we let somebody mess with it, then then all bets are off. We didn't sign it. And there was there was a day of what have I done? Right? Of course, I didn't do car. All right. Yeah, there was right back to work. Right. Here's work and then three weeks later, unbeknownst to us. Three companies put together a joint venture came to us with a deal bigger royalty rate, all the controls you want included packaging. Hmm. And that's what we wanted. So if we had said yes, you would have Yeah, yeah, in the first place we wouldn't got a better deal. Azhelle 22:12 Ah, I know that that was that's such a good part to read in the book because after you're reading the whole story when you get to that point, even I'm like, just sign it. Sign it but then...but I'm glad you did it. So good. Good choice.Rob Angel 22:31 You'd be having a different interview guests, right. Azhelle 22:33 Yeah. Can you imagine? I wouldn't be having an interview guests right now. They'd be Mattel or Hasbro or what? Oh, that's crazy. Okay, so next Will you tell me about the three biggest turning points from your journey? I looked through and I pulled out what I thought were the biggest turning points for your game like moments where if you didn't have the right partners, if you didn't have the right passion, it could have all just stopped at a stalemate. But instead it just kept going up because you just kept making the right decisions you kept being driven by the vision. So what do you identify now looking back as your three biggest turning points in your Pictionary journey. Rob Angel 23:16 I think the things that created Pictionary the way it was, was one, the idea, of course, but partners, for me, it was the perfect team, we shared the same vision. We got the work done, we connected, we bonded, and we just kept moving one foot in front of the other with each other. And, and I think it allowed for a lot of open communication, a lot of creativity, because we didn't know what we were doing. And so I think the partnership was key. I think from a practical standpoint, we had a different mindset. We couldn't get people to draw as much as we wanted. We knew that once people play the game they would like. And we track we have the game positioned as a drying game. And I would stand at the bottom of the escalator at Nordstrom, with the pad of paper and the game for 16 hours a day sometimes. What? Yeah. And people come down and they turn their head. So finally, instead of positioning as a drawing game, because people didn't get over their fear of thinking they couldn't draw, we turned it into a guessing game. So they would come down the escalator and I'd hold up a pad of paper, and I go guess this guess this Well, that's easy. You could do that. And then they come over, they guess. And that was a big, big switch for us to get people more interested in the game. And that got them to, to pay attention and right in their hand and to without question--without question. It's always about your vision. It's about what you really want to accomplish. Azhelle 25:07 And staying true to it. Rob Angel 25:09 And staying true to it. Not signing the first deal that would have just gotten you a new car. Azhelle 25:15 There's another story I tell ya, right. Got to my car. Yeah. They're they're staying true to the vision. We used to have to go for press checks early on. So the business manager had to go once instead of the graphic artist who designed the game and did everything. And he comes back and says, okay, everything looks great. They printed it up correctly. Well, the game comes in the packaging has changed. Oh, I know. Rob Angel 25:44 Oh, yeah. Azhelle 25:47Oh, that part. I was like, What happened? Crazy. You're there. Oh, my God. But you wrote it so well. I felt like I was there. It was good. It was really good moments in this journey where you just remember them like they're yesterday. It is definitely one of them. So very changes the color of the picture letter was salmon. He changed to white. Very the graphic arts goes crazy. Go change my work to change what I did. Yeah. Well looks better. You changed, you know, took us right into the middle of it. So finally Jerry says luck. Just look at it. It looks better. takes a deep breath. Gary takes a deep breath and looks at it. This is a guy that designed the game. Yeah, we looks at it says you know, it does look better. Yeah. Rob Angel 26:35 It was. Yeah, that was one of the favorite favorite stories that that we Yeah, partnership. We were able to take our egos out of our decisions. Mm hmm. And it just freed everything up. Azhelle 26:46 So what let's just recap the three things so 1 Rob Angel 26:50 The partners. The second point that I think we're here's our mindset, that right he did not know everything.We didn't know what we're doing half the time. But our mindset was curiosity. Our mindset was, since we don't know when challenges came up, when we didn't go our way, we were okay with it. We may not have solved the problem right away, but we knew there was going to be problems. And so we didn't get frustrated and take our eye off the ball trying to figure out what's next.Azhelle 27:22 Yeah.One One thing I want to I didn't, you know, we don't know we're gonna ask you this. This is just something that I'm realizing as I'm talking to you. I've had other inventors on and a couple of the most successful ones I've had on they did the same thing as you that they didn't go to Toy Fair right away. It wasn't like they invented the game and then immediately brought it to New York Toy Fair is what I'm talking about. And in your story, you had a similar situation you guys were pitching and selling and distribute distributing this game all throughout Seattle. And, and it wasn't, I think, a year to a year in that you went to New York Toy Fair for the first time and I just want to know if you thought that that helped you in your journey like delaying the time that you got to Toy Fair because you were more prepared you were more acclimated to pitching your game? The product was more developed? Or do you wish that you went sooner? Rob Angel 28:13 Well, when we started, we didn't know anything about toys. I'm gonna be honest with you, because we were so focused on producing the game, our first six months, were simply producing the game, right. But our philosophy was definitely one of keeping it local, keeping the game local. We wanted to promote it. We wanted to know if a store was out of inventory that we could make sure they had some. We wanted to do the demonstrations. I couldn't do it from New York or somewhere else. So we wanted to know exactly what those first thousand games we produced. Were doing right? And what how we could control it was all about control. So by the time we got to our first Toy Fair, we were a known commodity. We work our butts off. It wasn't just going to Toy Fair splaying the game out saying it's fun and go Okay, what do you think we had a story? By the time we got the Toy Fair, we had sales. We had word of mouth. We had people talking about us. So it wasn't just a cold call standing in a booth. Azhelle 29:18 Exactly. Okay. Now, finally, the world has changed so much today from when you first started Pictionary. Like today, there are social media influencers that are affecting toy sales there as well curated inventor tracks and shows. And it's not as much of like a wild west situation anymore, where it's not as easy to just go to a store, give a demo and sell your product. So my question to you my final question is, if you were to launch a new game today, and if you were starting from scratch, and you didn't have the connections you now have, what do you think you might do differently in your approach? Well, I wouldn't do too much definitely cuz it worked out pretty well. Rob Angel 30:01 That's true. But if I if I didn't have the picture experience, yeah. Knowing what I know now, I would ask myself three questions. One, why am I doing this? Am I doing it for money? Am I doing it to create a job for myself? Am I doing it for us a hobby? Because that's going to dictate some of your decisions that you make, right? When and why you're doing what you're doing. To if it's a product, particularly a game, would you buy it? Oh, I know that sounds simple. But if you buy your own product, why would anybody else if you can't get behind it? If you can't sell it? with passion and joy, Why would anybody else be interested? And and three, I would set my vision, set your vision, for your product, for your goals, for your dreams, everything and let it be that drive, what you're going to do, and all those decisions based on that will get you where you want to be, will get you what you want to be within your business, or your product or your relationship. Just figure that out, and then go all in hard. Have fun. Have fun. I'll say that one more time. Yeah. I'm gonna say one more time. It's not fun. Azhelle 31:28I mean, how can you not have fun selling a toy? You can have fun selling it, why we'll have people have fun buying it. Rob Angel 31:34 Well, there is that there is. Azhelle 31:36 But no, you're not going to sell everybody. So don't take Right, right. Ah, this is great. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Rob. I really I really feel so lucky to have you on the show today. I appreciate was absolutely My pleasure. And if and if there's any hiccups or anything you want to do, right? All right. And I'm gonna recommend that all of my listeners order your new book. I also want to say to my MITTI listeners, if you go to the show notes of this episode, I'm going to give you a dialog box where you can opt in to receive an email notification when Game Changer goes live on. It's going to be available on Amazon, correct? Rob Angel 32:14 Yes, you can preorder at RobAngel.com, Right now. They're, we're working on getting a better position on Amazon. So that's coming up. It's on Amazon now, but it's all pre order. Azhelle 32:28Oh, okay, great. Well, I'm gonna link to this book, in the show notes on Amazon and to your website. And video listeners. We have something really special planned. Rob is going to record a special 32nd audio with some advice, welcoming you to download and purchase his book. So you will only get that audio if you opt in to receive the update when the book goes live on June 2. So make sure you go to the show notes. Check that out. I'm really excited that he agreed to do that for us. That's really special. So just thank you so much for coming on the show. Rob. It was a pleasure to meet you. Rob Angel 33:07 Ah it was my pleasure. And I do have to say the my social media is, @theRobAngel on Instagram, Facebook and LinkedIn. Azhelle 33:15 Oh, I'm gonna follow you right now. Okay, and everybody, all my listeners, listeners, please follow Rob Angel on social and I'll tag all of that in the show notes as well. Beautiful. Beautiful. All right. Take care. Thanks, Rob. Okay, toy people. There you have it. That was my interview with Rob Angel, the creator of Pictionary. Now, his book Game Changer comes out June 2. So I really want to encourage you to get that if you need a notification because things are crazy right now and you're not going to remember what day June 2 is. Just head over to the toy coach comm forward slash podcast forward slash 19. There you can sign up I will give you an email notification when the book comes live. And you'll get a special audio message from Rob just for being a part of that list. If you're already a toy coach Insider, you do have to sign up to get this special message from Rob. It's a separate email list. So make sure you head over to the podcast episode page to do that. Remember to follow at the rub Angel on Instagram, Facebook and LinkedIn. Thank you so much for joining me today toy people. I hope you found some inspiration, maybe learned a few lessons. And I can't wait to see you back here next week. I've got some really exciting episodes coming up really inspirational messages from other inventors and insight from my experience in the toy world. As always, thank you so much for listening to this podcast. I know you have your choice of many podcasts out there so it means a lot to me that you tune into this one. Please make sure you leave a review. I see more and more of you are starting to leave reviews and I really appreciate it. I love love reading them. So keep on leaving reviews, leaving your comments, joining our Facebook group. And until next week, I'll see you later toy people. Intro/Outro + Jingle 35:15 Thanks for listening to Making It in The Toy Industry podcast with Azhelle Wade, head over to thetoycoach.com For more information, tips and advice

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