Episode #189: How To Pitch With Pizzazz at New York Toy Fair with Barry and Jason
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Maya Angelou once said, “At the end of the day people won’t remember what you said or did, they will remember how you made them feel.”
So tell me this, at your last pitch meeting, how did you make your guest feel?
In today’s podcast episode I sat down for a hilarious and informative chat with Barry and Jason. During this call, Barry and Jason share their journey inventing and ultimately licensing the TOTY nominated, Game Night In A Can. In between jokes and chuckles you’ll get invaluable tid-bits on pitching with pizzazz, reading body language of those you’re pitching to, and where this duo finds their inspiration.
A strong takeaway in this episode is the lesson to focus on the experience of the end user before you focus on the marketability of a product. Wondering why you should do that? Well, you’ll have to dive into today’s episode to find out.
EPISODE CLIFF NOTES
Find out why your ignorance of the toy industry and your knowledge from outside of the toy industry is actually your superpower. [10:44]
You won't believe what surprised Barry and Jason most about the toy industry.[12:20]
For first time visitors to New York Toy Fair, listen in to Barry & Jason’s story of their first experience at New York Toy Fair where they pitched and placed Game Night in a Can. [14:145]
Learn why it may be beneficial to practice your pitch but not script it. [16:59]
The facial cues and body language that are key indicators that your pitch is going incredibly well! [22:16]
Hear the story of Barry & Jason’s most memorable pitch. It involves underpants, Snickers, a glass wall pitch room, and an apocalypse. [29:55]
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This episode is brought to you by www.thetoycoach.com
Follow Barry and Jason on Instagram
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[00:00:00] Barry: at New York Toy Fair and at your first toy fair, it feels gigantic and you feel like the tiniest fish. And so we would, we would try and make jokes to people as they come by. Not at their expense,
[00:00:13] Barry: We would, hold up, you know, Game Night in a can in different creative ways. Jason saw, a rep from Uncommon Goods walking down the aisle and he actually got down on one knee and held it up like an engagement
[00:00:27] Azhelle Wade: Did it
[00:00:28] Barry: And yes, it worked.
[00:00:30] Jason: That was, that was kind of our first big placement .
[00:00:33] Azhelle Wade: You are listening to Making It In The Toy Industry, episode number 189.
[00:00:50] Hey there toy people, Azhelle Wade here and welcome back to another episode of the Toy Coach Podcast, making it in the toy industry. My guests today are [00:01:00] Barry and Jason, and they reached out to me to share an incredible topic with you guys, and that is pitching with pizzazz. Let me tell you a little bit about these two gentlemen, they're two best buds who invent party games.
[00:01:11] Host live game experiences and recently decided to start developing game shows. Speaking of which they've been contestants on 11 game shows between them. They live in LA and they're all about inspiring laughter and creativity. Their very first game creation was game night in a can and it's hitting Walmart in a couple of weeks with Goliath Games debuting it and their new game with PlayMonster, OK Genius, drops in Walmart and Target soon. As I said today, we're going to talk about pitching with Pizzazz. I'd like to welcome Barry and Jason to the show.
[00:01:43] Welcome guys.
[00:01:44] Jason: I thought, by the way, I, I was fully expecting to show up for pitching with pizzas. That's thought the topic was So I am completely unprepared except for all these pizzas that we have here. I the pepperoni smell was.
[00:01:59] 01 Main Mic: How [00:02:00] long have you guys been friends?
[00:02:01] Jason: 27 years.
[00:02:03] Azhelle Wade: Where did you meet?
[00:02:04] Jason: I do the math because I like to hold it over his head.
[00:02:06] We met on the first day of college at UCLA.
[00:02:09] Barry: Yeah, it was immediately, uh, It's like that moment in Step Brothers. Like, did we just become best friends?
[00:02:16] Azhelle Wade: So, so how did this friendship turn into a business venture?
[00:02:21] Barry: Banksy Well, we took a lot of twists and turns over the years I mean we started with a comedy band called the bicycling mariachis and
[00:02:33] Azhelle Wade: This is a
[00:02:33] great tale.
[00:02:34] 12 Guest 1: played,
[00:02:35] Barry: it was, it was really fun. I mean, our very first show was playing in the dining hall at UCLA and our first paying gig,
[00:02:45] Jason: our first paying gig.
[00:02:46] Barry: That's right. And then we would play in people's houses and we would play in different buildings on campus.
[00:02:53] And then we started playing at the Troubadour and the Whiskey A Go Go and the Viper Room. And we would [00:03:00] open for the band that became Maroon 5.
[00:03:02] Sometimes they opened for us.
[00:03:04] This was when they were a band. It's flowers and we were just all friends and all making funny things together and we had We would be writing the show right up to the day of the show And one of the things that we would know we had was a finale
[00:03:21] Jason: and so we had a finale at the Whiskey A Go Go one time called Balls, where we threw 500 balls out into the audience.
[00:03:29] Barry: Like Chuck E. Cheese balls.
[00:03:30] Jason: Over the course of the finale. Uh, somebody came in to deliver a pizza like halfway through the song, like that's the music cut out. And, and he opens the box of pizza and it's just 100 ping pong balls in there and he tosses those all out. And, and then at the Troubadour, we printed up, uh, 300 diplomas and tied them together.
[00:03:48] And it's, and it was like, because of the finale song, Valedictorian, um, and we tell you, we were just always tossing things out into the audience and we actually got banned [00:04:00] from the whiskey. Yeah. For throwing too many things out into the audience. Well, it was the processed meats, I think, that really Oh, we were throwing bologna, which is terrible. And I became a, a, a vegetarian soon after and felt horrible about that, but... But that is, but that is a fun, a fun little, uh, feather in our cap is that, uh, there are two bands that have been, uh, completely banned from the whiskey, and it's us and The Doors.
[00:04:24] Azhelle Wade: So, okay, I didn't, I didn't even know you were in the music industry, so how did you end up coming into the toy industry?
[00:04:30] 12 Guest 1: So we we had some different travels on our on our our own Jason was in TV development Um, I was in advertising, there was a lot of short films and comedy happening. Then we were doing these live shows, uh, these live comedy shows that were more like sketch and variety. And then at the same time, we were contestants on game shows, and something in that sort of transfigured our live shows into more of these live [00:05:00] game nights.
[00:05:01] So we started kind of combining those experiences. And we just kept doing these game nights, and they were super fun, and... There was one game night that was just so electric, like, we could feel the creativity buzzing in the room. And we decided that night that we needed to make this into a game. Jason even had the title, Game Night in a Can.
[00:05:25] Ready to go.
[00:05:26] So we Took that that night and that name game night in a can and we took about a year This is in I think 2015 and we just came up with a bunch of different ideas We took a lot of the games that we were doing live at these events and that we distilled them down into very simple quick instructions and how someone could play at home and decided to make this game that was Like having us in your living room, uh, hosting the game night.
[00:05:54] And so we did a Kickstarter, we raised enough to make the [00:06:00] game. We put it up on Amazon and then we went to our first, uh, New York toy fair a year later, and that was, that was
[00:06:08] 01 Main Mic: How did you come up with the games that you were playing on stage? Where did those initial ideas come from?
[00:06:13] 12 Guest 1: Uh, yeah, it all comes from entertainment, I would say. It's like, what is the most fun that we can have with people on stage? Uh, and then us. Us facilitating that game, you know, was, was always the easy part because that's what we'd been doing together is, you know, hosting and performing and then bringing people to compete was always fun, but it was like, what is going to yield the most entertainment was kind of always the metric that went into these games and then also moving the night along, you know, we'd have, we'd have people off doing a creative competition, like go outside and rewrite the national anthem for this country.
[00:06:47] Yeah. You know, and, and while they're doing that, let's have a paper airplane throwing competition inside, which is really funny because it's such a simple idea and yet so many people have forgotten the art of actually [00:07:00] making a paper airplane. And so, uh, so we found that like, okay, we can do these physical competitions while these creative competitions are happening.
[00:07:08] Barry: And so it became, it became, you know, like tempo and kind of like, you know, act structure, if you're talking about a game show, right? Like, like breaking that down in a live way. Jason, our first handful of game nights, Jason plays seven different instruments. And so he would have a keyboard and a saxophone ready to go and a bass and would play little things in between.
[00:07:29] And then that became too much to do that. And so then we had some shows where we would have a lot to carry around. Yeah, exactly.
[00:07:38] Azhelle Wade: this is really because like a live performance, especially when there's one or two performers on stage and you've got hundreds, let's say dozens or hundreds of people in the audience, you've got to engage all of their senses to keep them excited and entertained and, you know, giving you the energy back that you're giving them. I see there's a lot [00:08:00] of, it opens your creativity up, right? Cause you're not just thinking what will fit in this box and on this table and be 19. 99. You're thinking what will engage all these people with me and with each other. And like, do you think that that is what is kind of your superpower in that you don't sit down and think about what's going to fit in this box.
[00:08:19] You think about what's going to engage a group of people.
[00:08:22] Jason: I think you just ended the podcast right there with the right answer. That's it. We have, we have nothing else to say. That's our secret sauce. Thanks for having us. Everybody knows. Uh, yes, that, that's, that's right on. I mean, we, we really try and work backwards from what's the experience we want to create.
[00:08:41] And. It is different in every project. And certainly as we've been in the industry longer, we do have to think of the box size cost and all of these things, but we, we, we definitely don't start out that way. And we, we certainly didn't start out in the industry that way at all. And we learned along the way, like, Oh, [00:09:00] we need to have insurance if we're selling our
[00:09:02] Barry: And we need to make sure that the. The box, or in our case, the can actually says what this thing is and does and what your experience will be on the shelf else people aren't going to it. But in the beginning and also when we're in our early brainstorm phases, it is what's the experience, what's something different, what makes gets people laughing, what gets talking, what's just fun.
[00:09:27] Jason: Yeah. And I will say this as far as like business development and process wise. Sometimes your greatest asset is what you don't
[00:09:34] know. And. And. I think for us coming in, you know, kind of guns a blazing, uh, and we try not to use too many, uh, you know, military or, uh, ammunition based metaphors, Balls, balls a
[00:09:48] Barry: Balls
[00:09:48] Jason: We come in, balls, we, we came in balls a juggling,
[00:09:51] uh, Uh, that's a great title for a game, anyway. Noted. Uh, noted, trademarked, copywritten, Uh, no, [00:10:00] no, I, uh, I always look back at like Daniel Ek, the founder of Spotify, wanted to, you know, create this streaming platform where everyone could have music in like the model of the way everyone has any utility, right?
[00:10:12] Um, and he didn't know that you needed to get license rights for these songs. And it was, and he was so far down the road. In creating Spotify that, you know, he, he, he got to a point where he was like, Oh, now I need that. But it was already a runaway train. And then at that point it was like, okay, how do we get universal music group on board?
[00:10:30] How do we get these other majors on board? And once they got one or two, everyone else kind of followed suit. And so his superpower to use your word was, was ignorance sense. And, and for us, you know, ignorance on, on one side of the coin could be. Could be, you know, expertise on the other. And so we, yes, we brought in a certain expertise to an industry which we were largely, largely ignorant.
[00:10:54] that was actually the best
[00:10:56] Azhelle Wade: that
[00:10:56] is literally what I tell people that come into the industry and come to my [00:11:00] classes or TCA and I'm like, your zone of toy genius, as I call it, is the thing that is not in this industry. It's a thing that the toy designer at, you know, Hasbro won't know because they spent 10, 20 years studying toy design, not studying, psychology or, teaching, you know, they don't understand what you know.
[00:11:17] When I was building my program, Toy Creators Academy, I had this It's one part of one module that's like, okay, now that I taught you all this stuff, I want you to like go outside and not think about it for two days. And I remember as I was like recording that, I was like, people are going to think this is so ridiculous.
[00:11:32] Like what woo woo I get into? But it's so important to like, okay, a know bunch But completely forget about it for just a little go out have some fun. And just now that you have this new perspective, other things are going to pop out at you. But I don't want you getting all like, what's going to fit in a box. And was it like, not too We don't want to go there too soon. Right.
[00:11:53] Barry: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And that's a gr it's a, it, it's where the connections happen too, [00:12:00] is when you're open in that way and you're not hyper-focused, that all these little things start popping in different ways. that work
[00:12:06] here.
[00:12:06] Azhelle Wade: Yeah.
[00:12:06] Barry: be
[00:12:07] Jason: I think, I think you start, you know, putting together the pieces of where your epiphanys come from too.
[00:12:11] Like for me, I'll, I'll need to walk for, you know, and, and I get, you know, upwards of 12 to 18,000 steps a day
[00:12:19] in sometimes.
[00:12:21] And it's like, yeah, I mean, but that's, that's how, that's how I've learned. I work and, and I'll need to do it for a really long time. And then sometimes it'll just be like, there it is. Or, you know, out of the, out of the blue, these ideas will come in, but it's always, it's that shower principle. Like you have to be doing something else.
[00:12:37] And then, and then it
[00:12:38] Azhelle Wade: Okay, finish this sentence. The thing that surprised me the most about the toy industry was...
[00:12:44] Jason: The ghosts. We all know that, right?
[00:12:47] Finish Finish
[00:12:48] sentence.
[00:12:48] Barry: okay. Um, is how anything can become a toy or a game? I don't think. I don't think I realize just how open it [00:13:00] really is, and when you look at some of the ridiculous, just how insane some things are that are, I mean, you know, we can start by just talking about all the different poop games, that there's, A hundred different
[00:13:16] Azhelle Wade: Yeah.
[00:13:16] Barry: ones of those and there's, and there's games where you, you've got tiny hands that you're using.
[00:13:23] There's where you're, you wear a water balloon on your head. There's, I mean, there's just anything. can become a game
[00:13:31] Azhelle Wade: Mm
[00:13:32] Barry: same thing with, with toys. I mean, I, I think from the outside, it feels like there's more of a science to it. And I know there is something, the things that become hits, but when you're really in it, it's everybody's looking for something.
[00:13:47] So there's space for anything.
[00:13:49] Azhelle Wade: Yeah, and Jason the thing that scared that scared me the thing that surprised me
[00:13:55] Barry: Ghosts!
[00:13:55] Azhelle Wade: Okay, please finish this sentence the thing that surprised me most about the toy [00:14:00] industry was
[00:14:02] Jason: How small it
[00:14:03] Azhelle Wade: oh
[00:14:05] Jason: You know, and, and how quickly you find out that everybody knows everybody everybody worked with everybody. And now that person works over here, but they used to be there. And, um, we, you know, we live in Los Angeles and we dip into the shows here and there, and I feel like some people are more in the industry than, than, than we are sometimes.
[00:14:26] Um, but, but it's like, yeah, the, the, the same names pop up, you know, pretty quickly and, and also it's a, it's an industry that, that. You know, some bad actors have made it to the top of their field, you know, through success and that's how they're able to stay there. But others that don't have that success are, are kind of quickly identified.
[00:14:47] And if you ask around, you'll quickly get the scoop on who's real and who's not.
[00:14:52] Azhelle Wade: You guys are now known inventors in the industry.
[00:14:56] So your first creation, let's talk about Game Night in a Can. Let's talk about that [00:15:00] journey. So you took it on Amazon and you went to Toy Fair. What was your first experience at Toy Fair with that initial version of Game Night in a Can?
[00:15:07] Barry: We had a five foot booth
[00:15:10] Azhelle Wade: Like a table?
[00:15:12] Barry: Like, like a hallway, like, yeah, like a narrow stretch of real estate. And we were very active in our booth where we, as people were walking down the aisle, we were trying to get everybody's attention, which I, I know can be pretty annoying, but we were. We just were doing whatever we could do to get some attention to start because at, at that, I mean, at New York Toy Fair and at your first toy fair, it feels gigantic and you feel like the tiniest fish. And so we would, we would try and make jokes to people as they come by. Um, not at their expense,
[00:15:51] 01 Main Mic: Mm
[00:15:51] Barry: course.
[00:15:51] 01 Main Mic: hmm.
[00:15:52] Barry: We would, um, hold up, you know, Game Night in a can in different creative ways. I think Jason saw, um, [00:16:00] a rep from Uncommon Goods walking down the aisle and he actually got down on one knee and held it up like an engagement
[00:16:07] Azhelle Wade: Did it
[00:16:08] Barry: And yes, it worked.
[00:16:11] Jason: That was, that was kind of our first big placement
[00:16:13] Azhelle Wade: Shut up.
[00:16:15] Jason: And it, it stemmed from that, but that was just to stop traffic because otherwise they're walking by and you know, it's like that like the five foot wide where you're like, uh, and
[00:16:25] Azhelle Wade: Yeah.
[00:16:26] Jason: some of the people, some of the people are sitting on chairs in the back of their eating their tuna wrap their ill advised tuna wrap from the Javits center and.
[00:16:34] And they're just like, Oh, waving at people, you know, and like, you're like, how are you ever going to move that, you know? And, and also you paid 5, 000 for this booth.
[00:16:43] Azhelle Wade: Yeah,
[00:16:43] 12 Guest 1: So if you better do something.
[00:16:45] Azhelle Wade: Pitching at a show like New York Toy Fair, which is massive. By the time buyers get down to that new, um, vendor section, they're exhausted. Sales reps, they're like half interested by the time they get down there.
[00:16:57] For somebody that is [00:17:00] not quite as outgoing as you, how do you, how would you encourage them to get over that? How, what is the first little easy thing they could do to just give them that first step of like, just trying to talk to somebody.
[00:17:15] Barry: For me, a couple things come up. One is not having too prescribed of a scripted pitch. Because if you, if you get nervous about it and you get a little off track, You're going to be in your head like, wait, what, what am I saying that? And then it's going to be all about that. And it's really just connecting from human to human. I try to remove myself from what the thing is that we're pitching as far as having any of my ego in that product, in that item, so that. Because there's always going to be feedback, you hope that it's good, but also sometimes it's going to be constructive, and that's not a reflection on me. And so, if I'm, if I've already taken that out of the [00:18:00] picture, and I'm not trying to memorize something, then they're, I'm taking a few roadblocks already out of the way.
[00:18:06] And then, just practice, like we'll certainly practice. Pitching things to each other and try and tell the story in different ways. And how do we distill this? And then I will usually practice with our wives to, you know, other just interested friends that want to hear it. And so we're able to get comfortable in what are the important aspects of this that I need to hit, but that it doesn't have to be super prescribed all the way through because I want to.
[00:18:35] Uh, be able to have a conversation with this person so that they don't feel like they're just being talked at.
[00:18:40] Jason: And I think it's the number of conversations that really defines and continually morphs that message. Right? So you're, you're, you may walk, go into Toy Fair with your idea of what the elevator pitch is, but by the time you leave it, by the time you've had 20 conversations about it, you realize we, we, we, we have a phrase called [00:19:00] writing the nods where it's like you each, each interaction you, you, you get.
[00:19:05] Hopefully more and more nods right of understanding. Okay, and so it's just it's just communication but like You know, we ride the nods were like, oh, that was a good line.
[00:19:15] 01 Main Mic: Mm
[00:19:15] Azhelle Wade: I noticed one at the last show. There was the, the mesh was huge at the last ASTRA show. And I remember I was showing several items and I would say, this is a social emotional item, which is the same thing. And they'd be like, oh yeah, it's interesting. And I'm like, yeah, you know mesh? And they'd be like, oh my, me what? There's just things you have to refine. You know?
[00:19:36] Jason: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And I, I would say to go, go back to your initial question of like advice. If you're starting out and you ask somebody for advice, like, Hey, excuse me, can I ask you for your opinion on my product?
[00:19:50] If you're there trying to gather information for future iterations, and I guess that would be the first step to is acknowledging that, you know, no.
[00:19:58] No, no [00:20:00] plan, you know, survives first contact right with the outside world, you know, and so just, just knowing that there are going to be iterations, if you're a shy person who doesn't feel comfortable with like an established pitch or pitching, you know, an outgoing pitch, then maybe the tech is like to gather that feedback and to be more vulnerable and say, like, can I ask your opinion on this
[00:20:21] Barry: And maybe If you also, um, have a blanket around you, excuse me, sir, could you please help me with my invention?
[00:20:29] Jason: Lose 40 pounds, lose 40 pounds, start shivering, don't get any sun.
[00:20:36] Azhelle Wade: Oh
[00:20:36] Jason: I feel like the cautionary tale of Toy Fair is the person who is wheeling around the 20 year old invention that hasn't changed in all that time.
[00:20:45] Barry: Because we, we have, we have seen some people where we'll just see them at these shows and maybe they've come up to us at some point, but we will see that they're pulling out the exact same thing pulled out in previous years and [00:21:00] that it hasn't changed.
[00:21:01] Jason: I'll come up with a title like water soccer. Right. And let's say this guy is walking around with this game, water soccer that he created. And it's, it's, you can tell, you can tell. And then also you'll talk to the booth next year. I'm like, ah, that guy's been selling that thing for, you know, years. And you're Oh, and it's, and I think we want to make clear that, um, sticking with something you believe
[00:21:23] 01 Main Mic: Yeah,
[00:21:24] Barry: amazing. And sometimes it might take 20 years to find the right person who's like, yes, this is it. I think, I think what Jason is, is talking about and what I feel as well as when there's not, uh, change and improvements and, um, adapting and listening. Listening is really important. I think in pitches too, like we'll, we will be pitching someone and they may say something that will clock because we know that Oh, when we get to that aspect of this game, maybe we leave it out or maybe we're able to speak about it a [00:22:00] little
[00:22:00] Azhelle Wade: Oh Yes, like that. Okay, let's clarify that though. What he's talking about is Changing your pitch mid pitch, like you're like, you have a plan and you know what you're going to highlight about this product, but as you're talking to the person you're pitching to, you're already realizing they're not going to care that this is mesh.
[00:22:17] So then you'd like, I'm just going to mention it. You know, why waste time? Why lose their interest and just dive the things they like? Yeah. Mm hmm.
[00:22:25] Barry: Yeah. And sometimes there's something that they really respond to and it's like, Oh, let's just go down
[00:22:30] Azhelle Wade: Yeah.
[00:22:31] Barry: Like, let's just keep talking about that. Whatever that thing is.
[00:22:34] Azhelle Wade: Have you ever seen the show lie to me? It's some guy who would just analyze people's facial features to see if they're lying or not. So I'm going to ask you guys, are there any facial actions or body language responses that you identify as like, Oh, they like this. Let's keep talking about it.
[00:22:49] Barry: Oh, that's a good question.
[00:22:50] Jason: I think the nods, right, like we were saying earlier, the writing, the nods, and then it's almost always for me a [00:23:00] confirmation bias of something that person already believes. I really think it has to resonate with that person on a deeper level where it's like you've said something that this game does or offers that they've been looking
[00:23:12] Barry: There's also a, there's also a slow, almost inhale and put, having your head go backwards. That's like this Ah,
[00:23:22] 01 Main Mic: Oh.
[00:23:23] Barry: oh yeah. That, that's one too. Oh, that's the one they didn't see coming? Yes. Usually that's a surprise, like, oh yes, of course.
[00:23:31] It's that sometimes there's the looking up,
[00:23:33] Jason: I would say human nature wise, that one's more rare because, because you're less likely to change or adapt somebody's mind and, and you're, you're more likely to kind of judo their mind in that like you use the energy they already have and then you move it into your direction.
[00:23:52] Azhelle Wade: How do you do that?
[00:23:53] Jason: With your hands like this again,
[00:23:55] Barry: Jason is taking his hands as if he's holding a ball in between them and moving [00:24:00] it the left off camera. Um, well, I think that goes into the writing the nods. I mean, it's such a silly name, but
[00:24:09] I feel like that one concept does so much for our pitches. Because we will respond to the nods and to the laughs, we respond to laughs for sure. We're always, you know, trying to do something funny at some point of the pitch, and it's not usually prepared. We just want to have fun and connect with the person.
[00:24:29] So if they're laughing, that always helps. But if you're not a funny person, or if your jokes are falling flat, there are still those nods of recognition. And we just try and go deeper into those.
[00:24:41] Azhelle Wade: interesting.
[00:24:42] Barry: I just feel like that one thing does so much. Yeah,
[00:24:45] Azhelle Wade: So what, um, if you don't see a nod, how long do you keep going before you try to change course? If you know you've lost them, do you end, you kind of end that concept pitch early and move to the next one? Or do you keep trying different things? Like, what do you do when you're not getting that feedback?
[00:24:58] Barry: I think we move along [00:25:00] pretty quickly.
[00:25:00] Jason: Yeah I I think there are some there are some brick walls that you're just gonna be there too, right? And there's some people who are so set in their ways and closed off to the possibility You know that You know, I mean, you're, I feel like the pitching game is have the best idea, have the most passion and hope for, you know, the fertile soil really on the other side.
[00:25:21] And, and, and it's like, there is, it's a two way thing. It's like, basically I look at providence and opportunity as a high level line. You know, let's say it's a horizontal line going across and then your work is these like peaks and valleys below it. And at some, sometimes that Providence line drops down and you reach it and you hit it and that's the sweet spot.
[00:25:43] It's where it's like, but you can just raise your frequency, you know, and, and your effort and get better and better and better all along. And, but at the same time that, that bar just could be, you know, unattainable. It could be one of things where it's like, Oh, and with, and that company might be, you know, [00:26:00] maybe they just had an offsite where they're like, we're not doing any judging games, you know?
[00:26:04] it's like, right. And we've all, we've all heard that, but it's like, guess what? Like somebody is going to do a judging game that now is going to stand out.
[00:26:14] Barry: I also think that people. know fairly quickly in a pitch, whether or not they're
[00:26:20] interested. And I think it's pretty hard to get over that initial block.
[00:26:28] And, and I think that it, that's just a great time to switch gears and just wrap up that thing and know that, okay, well, I'm still going to pitch this to 10, 15, 20 other
[00:26:40] Azhelle Wade: yes, and not try to explain why they should be interested. I, this is something I teach my students over and over again. After every TCA pitch event, I'm like do not hard sell. If they say no, you say you and we keep going. Like, you know. awesome. Yeah, that's [00:27:00] great advice. Because I feel like a lot of people, especially early on, will even hear no, and then keep. Pushing it and and it's you can always come back to that person. You tweak and then you come back later on
[00:27:14] Do you have any memorable anecdotes about how you pitch with Pizzazz game night in a can?
[00:27:20] Barry: One of the games in game night in a can is called frumpy bumpers, where you and your partner have to bump butts as many times as you can in 30 seconds. It's so silly. It's so dumb. Um, and we had no trouble doing that on a Zoom call, just having to readjust our computer and then get up and then bump butts for, usually we wouldn't do it for the full 30 seconds because.
[00:27:45] Jason: Because cramps.
[00:27:46] Barry: The company that we ended up going with was one of the earliest ones we pitched, too. So we could have saved all that butt bumping. But yeah, we ended up doing it with Goliath, and Goliath... They would, a [00:28:00] lot of their, um, their game development team and their sales reps would play Frumpy Bumpers with people that they were looking to sell the game to, which is so funny to us because it's the, it's the silliest, dumbest game, but it just makes you laugh and it's very physical.
[00:28:17] It was like a pay it forward of Frumpy
[00:28:19] Azhelle Wade: How many games are in Game Night in a Can?
[00:28:22] Jason: 35.
[00:28:23] Azhelle Wade: I bring that up to say, you guys really strategically know the depth of your own game, but you chose what would make the biggest visual impact and create the most memorable moment for the people you were pitching it to.
[00:28:33] You didn't just say, let's just roll the dice and whatever card comes up, comes up. Like, no, you loaded the deck and you intentionally showed the best of the game. Mm
[00:28:42] Barry: Yes, we always load the deck for sure and I think there are some too. We have, we've certainly had some pitches With any of our games where we would just to keep it interesting would leave it to chance What's gonna come up and we always try and make sure that the content is good enough Right so [00:29:00] that anything that comes up is still going to be fun But yeah with game night in a can there are more games There are some games that are much more visual than others and that get across the point really quickly There's another one called bank face where one player holds the can and the other has a ball of paper.
[00:29:15] You try it, you get one point to get the ball in the can, but three points if you bank it off their face into the can. And so that one live is works really well. People like to play that one live. You get into it immediately.
[00:29:29] Jason: So at trade shows, we would have the, all the cards spread out on the table and we would have on the top.
[00:29:34] You know, our favorites certainly. And, and that, uh, we, we actually use that too, throughout revisions of game night in a can where it's like, okay, what are the cards that we would pick up and put back down, right. And not pitch. And it's like, we can beat that if we're, if we're not, if we're not pitching with that game, we can beat that.
[00:29:53] And so, so like over the course of the last, like, you know, eight years, you know, those, those games that were [00:30:00] always left at the bottom, they just got pushed out and we came over, over the top with ones that were way better.
[00:30:04] Azhelle Wade: Your pitching process sounds memorable. Did you ever have somebody that you pitch to bring up one of your pitches, like, at a much later date?
[00:30:13] Barry: There's a very memorable pitch from a game we had called Underpants Apocalypse, it comes with, uh, two gigantic pairs of underwear, like impossibly large pairs of underwear. And it's all of these mini games that you play. And One of them is called squirreling away for the winter where you have I think 30 seconds to gather as many items as you can and put them into your underpants from the room. So we were pitching, uh, Tanya Thompson from Hasbro. We love Tanya and she's the best. And we were pitching her in this glass room.
[00:30:51] 12 Guest 1: So we realized that we had not brought items. to kind of run around and pick up to put into the underpants. So [00:31:00] Jason notices that Tanya has this huge bowl of snacks on her desk. And so I started timer and Jason just starts taking Snickers bars and Pringles and pretzels and a stapler and essentially taking her snacks out of her bowl and all of her office supplies in his giant underpants.
[00:31:19] And she's just smiling, just like, well, this is interesting. First, our first pitch to her. And there's people looking from outside of the glass. Like, what is this, who is this thief in giant underwear that just ran into this room to steal all of these goods and
[00:31:33] 01 Main Mic: Did that get item get placed?
[00:31:35] Barry: We did shelve that because Um, a game came out in the UK called Fill Your Pants and it's where people wear large underwear, not as large as ours. But we didn't want to seem derivative. Yeah. So yeah, we shelved
[00:31:50] Azhelle Wade: this is a great time to talk, to move into conversations of struggle, um, and doubt. I had a student, message in our Facebook [00:32:00] group for TCA that she'd noticed somebody had a similar game to hers at a convention she was going to. And noticed it like, I think a day before the convention, it had been a game she'd been working on for a while, you know?
[00:32:13] What do you do when that happens?
[00:32:15] 12 Guest 1: Yeah. That's, I mean, in that case with the student, if I was, if I were in those shoes, I would just move forward with it and hope that mine
[00:32:25] 01 Main Mic: better. Yep.
[00:32:26] 12 Guest 1: of what is better and that mine
[00:32:28] may
[00:32:29] 01 Main Mic: too.
[00:32:29] Barry: That's great. Yeah. Because it's nothing you can do. And sometimes, sometimes great ideas are just in the ether and multiple people have sort of plucked them from the clouds and brought it to reality.
[00:32:42] Azhelle Wade: Do you have, keys to pitching to pizzazz that you want to share with the listeners? I asked my leading questions, but I want to give you space to share what you think is important.
[00:32:51] Jason: I think if it's a funny party game, then you got to get them laughing. I mean, [00:33:00] it seems so obvious, but I do feel like it's an important thing to reiterate. And if it's a skill and action game, you have to get them to the point where they want to do one more. Right. So there
[00:33:12] are these, we've just been talking about this lately, where it's like, that's what, that's what success looks like when the game is brought home.
[00:33:21] And
[00:33:22] played,
[00:33:22] Azhelle Wade: Mm hmm.
[00:33:23] Jason: you should be looking for that same level of success in the pitch.
[00:33:26] Barry: Yeah, I love that. I think also, play a round. People want to know how, how that goes. You, you can sell the pitch without playing a round, or at least you can get interest to get to the next round with that person if you don't have a playable version, but it makes such a difference.
[00:33:43] They already feel like there's a trust. They know that you're not just having wild ideas, but don't know how to get from A to B to C. And so, If you have four concepts, but one of them is playable, then starting to pitch with that is helpful for us. [00:34:00] Um, I think also knowing, like, does this need to be in person, or does it have the same impact over Zoom?
[00:34:07] Because they're very different ways to
[00:34:09] Azhelle Wade: , if you, like, you can't really play some, most games via Zoom, unless they're designed for it. So what do you do differently?
[00:34:16] Barry: Yeah, so with pizzazz. So, uh, well, you wear a shiny jacket.
[00:34:23] That was, that was something that we did early on in our toy career was we have, we had different colored shiny jackets and,
[00:34:30] Azhelle Wade: Yeah. Of
[00:34:31] Barry: we have mostly dropped the shiny jackets,
[00:34:34] Jason: but well, it's been flattering to see others. Do the shiny jacket.
[00:34:37] Barry: That's true. Others have picked up on the shiny shoes. Yeah. Um, I think, well, one is just really knowing like does, is this better for in person or is this better for zoom? so then being, and then not trying to squeeze it one or the other, you know, and so waiting, I have to wait until this
[00:34:55] that's how we feel about it because sometimes. If something just [00:35:00] comes off with a little bit of a thud because of the technology and not having that energy in the room, or if it's a skill and action game and you really want them to play, if we know that something isn't too far off in person, we'll wait.
[00:35:13] But for Zoom, if we, if we do need to try and get the game across, um, over Zoom, which we have sold games over Zoom that we haven't been able to play with them in person, certainly during the pandemic, we We try and add some fun elements to it. So we'll make a title card and we will hold that card up to screen to just kind of cleanse the palette, like, okay, now we're going into this, here's a little bit of a visual, we don't share our screen.
[00:35:41] We did that before. And we realized that all of the focus was on this document or something. Unless we really need to show that, we would rather print something out and hold it up to camera. And then bring it back to us, and then you can send support materials [00:36:00] after. Yeah, and that way we can really connect.
[00:36:02] And it's the connecting, I think, that leads to the pizzazz because then we feel looser. We feel more confident. We can make more jokes. We can listen better. Um, we had, we had one pitch where we were, we had a presentation and we were sharing the presentation on screen and it fell so flat and we just felt so silly afterwards.
[00:36:27] Um, yeah, we learned a lot.
[00:36:29] Jason: Yeah, Barry, Barry, like we ended that call, we closed the laptop and Barry was like, never again.
[00:36:33] Azhelle Wade: Oh, no.
[00:36:36] Jason: that's, but that was the thing. It's like, and it was, I'm glad you said that because it was one of those defining moments where it's like, you can choose to learn from it right away or you lose the lesson over time, you know, and, and right away it was like, this is what went wrong, you know.
[00:36:50] And, and then we came back and pitched them about a week and a half later and they were blown away.
[00:36:55] Azhelle Wade: it, it, on Zoom or in person?
[00:36:57] Barry: On Zoom again. Yeah. [00:37:00] And it was because we did that thing where we printed out our materials needed show something. How it's a screen and then things that we could make playable that we could print out and glue and cut cardboard and just have these different elements to show made such a difference as opposed to sharing our screen.
[00:37:19] Jason: I will, will say one more, one more thing, one more piece of like actionable pitching advice that I think everybody can use is this idea of the familiar surprise and the familiar surprise means that it's something that is not so out there that the recipient of this pitch has no frame of reference.
[00:37:39] Right. Um, and yet, and yet it's like, so how is it similar to successes that are out And how is it different? Right. And so you take, you know, it's like there's the famous, uh, alien, the film is the best way to summarize that is like Jaws in space. Right. It's like, it's like, you know, what JAWS you [00:38:00] know, I mean, everything with that, that, you know, the, from the box office success people lined around the block to the people scared of going in the water.
[00:38:07] Okay. Like now that's in space. Like, got it. Okay. I got it. Right. Even if you've never seen anything, you get what it's about from that. So like, what is that version, you know, and certainly, yeah. You know, I'm sure these buyers, you know, get weary of hearing it's cards against humanity with this, but there is, there is something to where it's like,
[00:38:26] you're grounding them, you're grounding them and you're, and you're also, you're priming them, right?
[00:38:31] And don't, but for the love of God, don't pick something that was not a success to it
[00:38:36] Barry: But then it's like, okay, it's like this, but, and then that's your special
[00:38:41] Azhelle Wade: It allows you to not have to waste so much time in the details too. You can, you, it's almost like there's like a pre explanation of pre understanding.
[00:38:49] Jason: It sets, It sets, the boundaries of, where their imagination can
[00:38:53] Azhelle Wade: I remember there was one thing I had Tanya on my podcast and she was saying, if I hear one more person tell me they [00:39:00] have the next big monopoly. And so what I, what I teach people is. You, there's a difference between a familiarity pitch and then you just trying to say that you have the next big uno or the next big
[00:39:10] this,
[00:39:10] Barry: yes, totally. Totally.
[00:39:12] Azhelle Wade: and you saying like, this is the next big whatever, or this is like Monopoly with crypto. Like that's a different conversation, right?
[00:39:20] Jason: hundred percent.
[00:39:21] Barry: Oh, I was gonna say one, one other thing that is fun to play with
[00:39:25] Azhelle Wade: What?
[00:39:26] Barry: and, and is a, a tasteful prop here and there.
[00:39:31] Azhelle Wade: Why do I feel like you don't actually mean tasteful, but okay.
[00:39:34] Barry: Like a slide whistle, if you will. Oh, here we Or a bike horn. No, we have brought in some musical instruments, and
[00:39:43] Azhelle Wade: You brought
[00:39:43] in musical instruments?
[00:39:45] Barry: Yes, and Jason is usually like, uh, alright.
[00:39:48] Jason: And then. Sometimes it's worked, sometimes it has not worked. So, so the one time, the one, one of the times I was fully on board with Barry was like, Hey, let's show up for this next Zoom pitch with maracas. And let's just [00:40:00] start shaking our maracas. And I was like, all right, cool. Let's do it. Well, and let's start off screen and then rise up into screen while shaking the maracas.
[00:40:08] So, so we were ducked down and then we, we started lifting up and shaking our maracas only to realize that the person we were pitching did not reschedule another pitch and we walked right into a pitch that was already happening. With about 12. With 12 other people and two, two, guys creeping onto the screen with shaking maracas.
[00:40:29] And we're like, we will just show ourselves out. Thank you very
[00:40:33] Azhelle Wade: That is hilarious. Thank you for
[00:40:35] sharing.
[00:40:36] 12 Guest 1: Adios.
[00:40:36] Azhelle Wade: Have a nice day. I do want to put a caveat in here though. Because I feel like some of A'chelle said we have to make a sizzle video. Please, these gentlemen are experienced professionals in entertainment, okay? When we get there, you can also go off the cuff and do your own thing for our first pitch. We are doing sizzle videos, okay? Like, we are keeping [00:41:00] it clean, okay?
[00:41:02] Barry: keep it don't listen to
[00:41:04] Azhelle Wade: not yet. We're not ready for that yet. We need one round, one main intro because listen, it's not easy. I, you know, sometimes I feel people like you and even myself, we might underestimate how easy it is for us to naturally talk about something we're excited about to sell.
[00:41:23] Right. To pitch. And then when you see somebody who just, that inclination doesn't come to them and you just throw them into the spotlight and you're like, go. And they can't like, they don't, they don't know how to formulate the sentence. They can't go off the cuff. They don't know what to say. They, they freeze or they talk quiet.
[00:41:39] or their, their speed and there is just really, um, it's not that easy. And in those cases, that's where I say, build yourself a sizzle video, make yourself a pitch deck, give something that can help keep you on schedule, amped up and, and keep the energy
[00:41:56] Barry: Yeah absolutely. I mean, then [00:42:00] everybody's looking at the same thing and then you're more answering questions are having to do a full A to Z pitch. So that that's great. I mean, if you have something that people can watch, they can play. They can touch and feel, then that does so much of the work for someone who is very shy
[00:42:20] Azhelle Wade: Yes.
[00:42:21] Barry: want to tell the whole story.
[00:42:22] Yeah, that's great.
[00:42:23] Azhelle Wade: I would love to get your final bit of advice because you're in, your journey from music to game nights to the toy industry from manufacturers to inventors is so inspiring.
[00:42:33] Um, you know, what advice would you have for other aspiring game creators who might be looking to develop, manufacture, or pitch their own ideas?
[00:42:41] Barry: I, the thing that helped us the most was talking to as many people as we could in the industry and, and getting different stories from everybody and sort of taking from that what made sense to us and what resonated. Going to trade shows is very helpful [00:43:00] because that's where you get to make friends in the industry and everybody starts sharing their experiences.
[00:43:06] I think you're listening to your podcast is a huge benefit to new, uh, inventors and established as well. I mean, it's, it's a really helpful resource what you're doing. And I think that, you know, whoever's listening to this right now is already listening to it. So that's great. So congratulations, listener, you made an excellent
[00:43:25] Azhelle Wade: a great choice. You're welcome.
[00:43:28] Jason: Very, very just secured part two
[00:43:30] 01 Main Mic: Uh, no, definitely. Yeah, you guys have to come back for part two.
[00:43:34] Barry: I think just one of the main things is being passionate about whatever it is that you're bringing to the table, because it's going to take a lot of hard work and you're going to have to talk about it over and over and you have to really believe in the thing. There are people I've spoken with who like, I want to invent something like.
[00:43:52] I have this thing. I think maybe this thing would be the thing. And to me, that sounds like that's
[00:43:57] Azhelle Wade: You're not. Mm hmm.
[00:43:59] For, [00:44:00] yeah, for yeah. Even picking clients and students, I'm like, it's not even the idea as much as it is the person. You can sense a person who's gonna dig and find that idea. But, yeah.
[00:44:11] Barry: Yeah, totally. Yeah. And it, you might not have the thing at first, but as long as you're willing to dig in and to find what it is that you're passionate about, and then you're able to really see that thing through to completion, whatever it is, that, that feels like an important one to me.
[00:44:28] Azhelle Wade: The very last question my favorite question, what toy or game blew your mind as a kid?
[00:44:34] 12 Guest 1: The Ewok village Always comes up for me It was it was the it was the most true to the story like like it was a great toy that Represented the return of the Jedi films with all the Ewoks and everything But you could also it was also this like blank canvas where G. I. Joe could step in and snorks Could fall down the same thing.
[00:44:56] Mine was, I think I have two in the board game [00:45:00] world. It was Fireball Island when that first came out.
[00:45:03] They, brought it back recently, you have this, this, uh, idol at the top of this 3D printed board and it spits out these fireball marbles that run down these paths and can knock your character over.
[00:45:17] And as a, I don't know, maybe 10 year old, I went bananas for
[00:45:21] 01 Main Mic: Oh, this looks
[00:45:22] 12 Guest 1: when like... Yeah, and when like Raiders of the Lost Ark was like, uh, it was still, you know, mainstream. It had that. Or Temple of Doom. Spirit to it, for sure. And then when I was very small, Yeah, it's, it's fun. It's, it's great for, for tweens.
[00:45:39] For tweens. I think is. Tweens! The perfect age for that. What a nice vac form tray is such an
[00:45:44] 01 Main Mic: Oh.
[00:45:45] 12 Guest 1: Like, uh,
[00:45:46] 01 Main Mic: The nerdiest comment ever.
[00:45:48] 12 Guest 1: check out the vac form tray on that one. It's true. It's
[00:45:53] 01 Main Mic: Oh my gosh, guys, this has been a great interview, really informative and fun. Thanks for making me laugh and I'm [00:46:00] looking forward to seeing you at the next show.
[00:46:01] Azhelle Wade: Well, there you have it, Toy People, my interview with Barry and Jason. Let's dive into a quick conclusion of some of the key points that we learned today. Number one point that I want to highlight from today's episode is this. Your ignorance from the toy industry can actually be a superpower for you. Jason gave that great example of the creator of Spotify, who built an app around music without first understanding the licensing aspect of it. So don't be too afraid if you don't have full knowledge of the toy industry yet that will come in time. And in the meantime, what you don't know can actually be your superpower to motivate you to do bigger things than have ever been done before. The next thing we learned from today's episode is how to pitch with pizzazz. And we specifically talked about getting creative at New York Toy Fair, getting people to stop at your booth, even though you may feel annoying, it may feel awkward. Barry and Jason [00:47:00] shared that one of their biggest placements happened because they playfully stopped a buyer as they passed by their booth. Another great point. We learned today is the benefit of practicing your pitch, but not scripting it. If you've got the ability to speak off the cuff, this is for you. And this practice is to make sure that the person you're pitching to feels like they're part of a conversation and not just being pitched at. Barry shared it's important to make a connection with the person that you're pitching to and oftentimes a scripted pitch just can't do that. But you still do have to memorize and state key sales points about your idea, but everything in the pitch around that should come more fluidly. And then my favorite takeaway from today's episode is around the conversation of facial reactions and body language to look out for that are key indicators that your pitch is actually going pretty well. And we talked about what to do [00:48:00] when you get those positive key indicators that your pitch is going well, and what to do when you get the opposite indicators that they aren't going well. In summary, we talked about leaning in to what the person you're pitching to likes and steering away from the things that they clearly don't like. Your action item for next week is this. Let me know if you'll be at New York Toy Fair the Toy Creators Academy alum are planning to get together just to meet up and say hello at some point. So perhaps you might want to stop by and say hello to all of us there. You can send a message on Instagram. That is the best way to reach out to me. As always, I want to thank you so much for spending this time with me today. I know that your time is valuable and that there are a ton of podcasts out there, so it truly means the world to me that you tune into this one. Until next week, I'll see you later, toy people.
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