#263: NY Toy Fair 2025 Exclusive Interview with Cameron Ring
With over 13,000 followers on TikTok and millions of video views, Lost Boy Entertainment is forging a new path for launching a successful game brand. To continue our New York Toy Fair 2025 interview series, I sit down with Cameron Ring, co-founder of Lost Boy Entertainment.
Lost Boy Entertainment is a rising game company that started with just 500 copies of their first game in 2020 and now has products online and in major retailers.
The company is composed of 3 cousins who handle everything from designing games to shipping orders and marketing. In our talk Cameron shares how they started small on Amazon, shipping games from their garage and how they eventually expanded into retail.
This episode is a great 101 on the power of identifying a market gap, filling a need, and self funding your launch. If you’re considering a show like New York Toy Fair might be the best next step for your brand, listen in on why rushing in too soon could actually hurt your business.
My favorite takeaway from this interview with Cameron revolves around distribution channels, but you’ll have to hit play to find out exactly what was so insightful about that conversation.
Listen For These Important Moments
[04:40] - Cameron and his cousins manufactured just 500 copies of their first game Plunder, and after selling out multiple times on Amazon, they realized they had something special on their hands.
[08:10] - Learn why Cameron says he values selling in multiple channels for different reasons.
[14:39] - How did Cameron and the Lost Boy Entertainment team know that they were ready for New York Toy Fair? Well they started building at smaller shows first.
[20:00] - What has been the biggest secret to the success of Lost Boy Entertainment? Was it TikTok marketing, smart distribution, or steady and slow growth? Perhaps all three…
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This episode is brought to you by www.thetoycoach.com
Connect with Cameron on LinkedIn and let him know you heard him on Making It in the Toy Industry!
Check out Lost Boy Entertainment’s games! Visit LostBoyEntertainment.com to see their latest releases!
If you’re looking for more business and marketing tips, don’t miss Episode 251 on Click-Worthy Subject Lines—listen now at thetoycoach.com/251!
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[00:00:00] Azhelle Wade: You are listening to making it in the toy industry. Episode number 263.
[00:00:10] Welcome to making it in the toy industry, a podcast for inventors, entrepreneurs, and makers like you, and now your host, Ajelle Wade.
[00:00:22] Azhelle Wade: Hey there, toy people, Ajelle Wade here, and welcome back to another episode of making it in the toy industry. This is a weekly podcast brought to you by TheToyCoach. com.
[00:00:32] Azhelle Wade: Today continues our New York Toy Fair 2025 exclusive interview series. But before we dive into our next interview, let's quickly recap what we learned in last week's interview. Well, last week we learned that Alex is the business mind of HootNanny Games and Whitney is the creative genius. They absolutely love working with inventors.
[00:00:51] Azhelle Wade: And to them, the most important thing for a game pitch that they see is that the game brings the fun. They want to see people having fun playing your game. If you missed any episode in our New York Toy Fair 2025 exclusive interview series, head over to thetoycoach. com forward slash podcast to check them out.
[00:01:10] Azhelle Wade: To hear Whitney and Alex's episode, head over to the toycoach. com forward slash 262. Okay, let's dive into our interview for this week. An in person interview we held at New York Toy Fair with Lost Boy Entertainment's none other than Cameron Ring. Lost Boy Entertainment is one of the most exciting new publishers in tabletop gaming.
[00:01:33] Azhelle Wade: They're the creative minds behind the games Piles, Plunder, King's Cup Extreme, and more. They bring fresh twists to classic style games. And today in my interview with Cameron, one of the founders, we're talking about what's new, what's next and why tabletop games continue to bring people together. This episode has a lot of clear answers for where you should launch your product, Amazon, your own website, or looking for distribution, why different channels have some more value than others.
[00:02:03] Azhelle Wade: And Cameron does not hold back in sharing his entrepreneurial advice for anyone looking to start up their own toy or game company. So. Without further ado, let's dive in to the interview. Cameron, welcome to the podcast. Great to be here. It was great to meet you yesterday and we already got you on the show.
[00:02:22] Azhelle Wade: Might be a record. Not going to lie. Right. That might be a record. So I love the name of your company, Lost Boy Entertainment. Were you inspired by Peter Pan? Yes. Yes.
[00:02:33] Cameron Ring: We have a former Disney employee on the team and our first game was about pirates. It felt fitting. Oh, what was the first game? Our first game was plunder a pirate's life.
[00:02:43] Cameron Ring: It's a two to six player strategy board game. It's very similar to settlers of Catan with some risk and battleship. You're a pirate and you pirate stuff. Ooh, that's awesome. Is it still out? So yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's on, uh, all the places you can get games. Wow.
[00:03:00] Azhelle Wade: That's amazing. So like the tabletop industry is super tight knit.
[00:03:03] Azhelle Wade: How did you break in as a brand new company? When did your company start? I'm sorry. I should ask that first.
[00:03:08] Cameron Ring: No worries. Technically speaking, plunder came out at the very end of 2019 and when we released our second game, Kings Cup. Um, we started taking it much more seriously and, um, really took on the Lost Boy Entertainment name and started releasing games regularly.
[00:03:24] Azhelle Wade: How did you break in? This industry is very tight. People always say you can't get in the toy business without being in the toy business or the game business. What was your first thing that helped you break in? Yeah,
[00:03:33] Cameron Ring: we are definitely an out of nowhere new publisher and it started with the passionate idea to make a board game and we did a very small print run.
[00:03:42] Cameron Ring: It was for fun. How small? 500 copies. Tiny,
[00:03:46] Azhelle Wade: yeah. Yeah.
[00:03:46] Cameron Ring: We basically saw that there was a demand in the industry. We all grew up gaming, me and my, uh, my business partners. We grew up gaming, we're family, and we felt that there was a lack of this middle type of game, somewhere between the really hardcore games and the really, really straightforward games.
[00:04:02] Cameron Ring: That gateway. Type of game and we wanted to make something that we ourselves would enjoy playing and would enjoy playing with our family. So we did a small print run of our piratey board game, Plunder, and when it sold out, we did another print run and another one and then we said, okay, hold on. Maybe, maybe there's something here.
[00:04:21] Cameron Ring: Did a business? Where did you sell it? So we started just on Amazon, sometimes shipping out of the garage and, um, sometimes letting Amazon take the reins and that allowed us to get our game to people. All across the country and faster than we could ever hope to do it ourselves. Yeah. Started on Amazon and then made our own website.
[00:04:40] Cameron Ring: Now we're on TikTok shop. We have some games in Target. Hobby stores across the nation. That is awesome. So who are your co founders? You said you're a family? Yeah. So it's me and my two cousins. So it's me, Casey Corey and Chris. We are the entire team. We have some artists who help us with some wonderful graphic design.
[00:04:58] Cameron Ring: Yeah. But that is it. That means we are also the guys in the warehouse, we are the guys doing the marketing. Oh my gosh. And we're also here at the conventions having a good time. How many SKUs do you guys have currently? We now have nine on the market. We have three more to be released by the end of the year.
[00:05:13] Azhelle Wade: Okay, and SKUs, just for the people that are new, new, is per item. Like, each item is considered a
[00:05:18] Cameron Ring: SKU.
[00:05:18] Azhelle Wade: Nine. Three people. Everything from product development to concept to sales to warehouse to ship. Yep. Yeah, it's
[00:05:26] Cameron Ring: a busy, busy race. This is your full time job. This is the full time thing now. After a year or two of doing it, we, we all made it the full time gig.
[00:05:35] Azhelle Wade: What was the moment that you knew that Lost Boy Entertainment was ready to go from just being an idea that you kind of, like a hobby? To like a full time business.
[00:05:45] Cameron Ring: I don't think we ever thought that it would sell out in the way that it did, I wonder. It was a fun idea and there's so many games being released every year.
[00:05:53] Cameron Ring: I don't know if we ever really thought it would catch on that quickly. And when it did, and then we had another idea and another idea, we decided I don't want to give away these ideas. I don't want to not make them. Let's just keep doing it. And I think it really clicked when other people started approaching us and saying we like your game, let's talk.
[00:06:12] Cameron Ring: And I think that was the moment we realized we really had something on our hands. Was that at conventions, or? It started with emails and, and Zooms. And, um, we didn't even go to a convention until a couple years in. Now we do them all the time. And, uh, the conventions have also helped us get to the next level.
[00:06:29] Cameron Ring: As you can hear, my voice is gone because of the conventions. I
[00:06:32] Azhelle Wade: know, I met him yesterday, I was like, who is
[00:06:34] Cameron Ring: this person?
[00:06:35] Azhelle Wade: My voice was gone too, and then it just came back like 30 minutes ago, so I don't know.
[00:06:39] Cameron Ring: Yeah, we were in Kentucky a few days ago, and then came straight here to New York, so no days off.
[00:06:45] Cameron Ring: Was that Gamma? Gamma. You were at Gamma. Great convention, Gamma. Oh my gosh,
[00:06:48] Azhelle Wade: I haven't been there yet. There's a lot of them. I know, I gotta go. So, I have so many questions, like so many things racing through my mind. Okay. For aspiring game designers that are wondering if they should self publish or if they should license or if they should start their own website or Amazon, do you have any advice of where you would tell them to start?
[00:07:04] Azhelle Wade: Definitely.
[00:07:05] Cameron Ring: It's become Easier in today's world with e commerce to get games out there, but there are a lot being released every year. Yeah. I think at the end of the day, remember that the most important thing is the game itself. Okay. Is it fun? Yeah. Do you want to play it? Mm hmm. And that, I think, is king in an age of, you know, a thousand new games every year.
[00:07:25] Cameron Ring: Mm hmm. There's a lot of challenges, and we went our own route because we, as silly as it sounds, we wanted We wanted total decision making abilities. And we didn't like the idea of someone else kind of taking our idea and changing it in a way that we might not agree with. Not to say that's not a great route for many publishers, but we decided to roll with it our own way.
[00:07:46] Cameron Ring: And it was a slow burn. We did not do, you know, a 50, 000 unit order out the gate. Yeah. We self funded. We didn't use, um, Kickstarter. Which again is another great route you could take. But again, we wanted to, you know, be in charge of everything. Yeah. Um, so my advice is Yeah, my advice is love the game you make, trust the process, trust yourself, and know that there is a world you could do it yourself, and um, do what feels right.
[00:08:10] Azhelle Wade: I want to go back to Blunder a little bit, like, when you got on Amazon, were you using Amazon keywords to promote it? Did you do, like, marketing efforts, or was it just that people were searching for pirates at the time?
[00:08:19] Cameron Ring: I think there was a lack of pirate games a few years ago, funny enough since then. Oh, interesting.
[00:08:24] Cameron Ring: There are a lot of new pirate games. A lot of new games, okay. The, the natural marketing that, we're very lucky that a board game gets very natural marketing. How do you say, what do you mean? Well, when you buy, you know, maybe something in your kitchen or, or something in your furniture or something like that.
[00:08:38] Cameron Ring: You buy it and that's it. A board game has to be used with other people. You play with six people, one person in that group decides to go buy it. They go buy it, they go play with their group, one person and so on. And that's a, that's a really wonderful snowball that can occur. Yeah. So we, we're not on Amazon ads.
[00:08:55] Cameron Ring: for the first year. We had no money, so we got a very natural push. I do attribute a lot of it. It was COVID hit and I think people were indoors game time. I think people were indoors. So it was a burst of
[00:09:05] Azhelle Wade: board games and there were no pirate board. Yeah, so it was a combo.
[00:09:09] Cameron Ring: And like I said, I do think this.
[00:09:11] Cameron Ring: gateway worlds. Um, a bit more than like the, the sorry's of the world. I grew up playing. Sorry. Yeah. And not quite the six hour hardcore game. I think there was a demand for that type of, and now we are, obviously we do traditional marketing. We're also very active on social media. And I think, um, the, our authenticity, our marketing is just us playing the games, you know, it's not unboxing videos and stuff.
[00:09:33] Cameron Ring: Um, so that has been really good to us.
[00:09:36] Azhelle Wade: So tell me a little bit about these games. Piles, this is what your number one game right now?
[00:09:39] Cameron Ring: Yeah, Piles has, uh, kind of taken the world by storm. Um, Piles is, it's my favorite game to play because there's no turns. And as we say, there's no time to waste. Piles is matching and sorting and memory.
[00:09:52] Cameron Ring: Um, I like playing one on one, but you can have up to eight people. And who would have thought that laundry could be fun? I was going to say, I hate
[00:10:00] Azhelle Wade: doing laundry. Absolutely hate it. We did
[00:10:02] Cameron Ring: make a game about chores and, um. Surprisingly, it's been, it's been okay. Notice it's not called Laundry, it's called Piles.
[00:10:09] Cameron Ring: Working title was Laundromatch. Thank goodness we didn't go with that. That's a
[00:10:13] Azhelle Wade: mouthful. Yeah.
[00:10:14] Cameron Ring: Yeah. Laundry was our first, and then naturally, I was fresh out of college, naturally the next game was a drinking game we made. Um, King's Cup Extreme based on King's Circle of Death, Ring of Fire. That is the mascot, his name is Chug.
[00:10:28] Cameron Ring: Chug is adorable. He's a little beer can.
[00:10:30] Azhelle Wade: Oh, is he? That's so funny. He's a beer can that's drinking. Yes.
[00:10:37] Cameron Ring: Yeah, the irony is not lost. And um, every card has unique art. Um, we were really proud of that. So then we made piles, and then we made cheers to the governor. Cheers to the governor. Yeah, behind me is our new whiteboard game.
[00:10:50] Cameron Ring: We go way back. What's this about? It's a game meant to be played with your friends and your family. And, um, it's about being assigned a player in the group secretly and then having to cleverly think of a clue that only they will know is meant for them. Oh, I love that! Yeah. That's cool. So if I'm playing and the category is vacations and I've been assigned my buddy who I know Uh, was stung by a jellyfish once in Hawaii.
[00:11:14] Cameron Ring: My clue might be jellyfish. Everyone else goes, what is that?
[00:11:18] Azhelle Wade: I like games like that, like, I like partnering with my husband when, you know, it's usually like a couple versus couple, but this is so great because you don't have to be a couple and it can be, and you switch people so it's like more of a challenge.
[00:11:27] Azhelle Wade: That's so
[00:11:28] Cameron Ring: cool. It's one of those games that you end up not caring about who won, but talking and reminiscing and sharing stories. Realizing
[00:11:34] Azhelle Wade: you probably should hang out with somebody more. You're like, Ooh, I did not know anything about Tina. Yeah. I was like, I'm so sorry, Tina. I
[00:11:39] Cameron Ring: know, I know.
[00:11:40] Azhelle Wade: Oh, that's
[00:11:40] Cameron Ring: so great.
[00:11:41] Cameron Ring: So, are you selling to specialty? Are you in mass market? Where are you at? So, we, uh, now distribute through Asmoday.
[00:11:47] Azhelle Wade: Oh, yeah.
[00:11:48] Cameron Ring: Which was huge. Julian, hey. They are the best. Yeah. And they approached us, um, and now help us get into mom and pop shops across America, as well as doing some, uh, translations for piles in different languages.
[00:12:00] Cameron Ring: Mm hmm. We're now in 20 countries, 12 languages, which has been really amazing to see. Um, but we're also on e commerce, we're on Amazon, we're on walmart. com, our own native website with Shopify, and now Piles is in Target, along with our board game Plunder.
[00:12:15] Azhelle Wade: What, if you're able to share, I'm curious to know what drives the most business, your own site, Amazon, or distribution?
[00:12:21] Cameron Ring: I think it's a wonderful mix. I do think there's plenty of people who like to get games in different manners. I think E commerce is still going to be king for the time being, but it depends on the game. Plunder does really well in mom and pop shops because it's the type of game that I wouldn't want to see on a shelf and then explore.
[00:12:39] Cameron Ring: It's got good table presence. Whereas a drinking game like King's cup, it lends itself better to, you see it in online marketing and then you go to your favorite e commerce platform. I do think every game is different. Uh, piles of somewhere in the middle. It's so bright and colorful, but it also looks good on our videos.
[00:12:56] Azhelle Wade: I always wonder about that, like when people are building their long term strategy, should they go one way or the other? But I like this concept. If you're making lots of product, different product might do better on different channels. Yeah, absolutely. How did you attract, or do you know how you attracted the distributor Asmodee because a lot of people, when they're first starting out, they need help with distribution, but they actually have no idea what would make a distributor want to work with them.
[00:13:17] Cameron Ring: Yeah, absolutely. It was funny because Asmodee, obviously, Katon, and we. thought Plunder was the next Catan. I still think it is. And, um, so we thought that Plunder would be kind of the, uh, the door opener, but it turned out to be Piles. And what did it was our organic, uh, social media videos primarily being on Instagram and TikTok.
[00:13:39] Cameron Ring: And TikTok is the best app for reaching people that don't already follow you for getting that pure exposure. And it was Piles in the end of the day, we would post videos. are just a POV of us playing the full game only takes if it's a one on one So the entire video was the entire game And people would we wouldn't even say the rules people would learn just by watching.
[00:13:59] Cameron Ring: Yeah, and it was that that ability to Film a dozen videos in an hour and have a week's worth of content like that for free Was what was game changing for us. Plunder doesn't really lend itself to that. You can not, yeah. That was it. Was, uh, As they saw Pearls, And then they said, Well, sure, The other games are, Are something worth checking out.
[00:14:20] Cameron Ring: And, uh, That was it. Oh,
[00:14:21] Azhelle Wade: congratulations. That's huge. Thank you. Huge. Okay. I wanna, wrap this up with our second topic, how to make the most of industry events. So Toy Fair is a big investment for any company. Um, how did you know you were ready to come to a show this big and how did you prepare to make the most of a show this big?
[00:14:39] Cameron Ring: Absolutely. We started with a few smaller shows. But we always knew Toy Fair was, um, kind of that white whale, that one you'd love to go to, and it's tough to break in. And, uh, we got experience with the smaller shows. We knew we were ready when we, we felt like we were no longer nervous about going to conventions.
[00:14:56] Cameron Ring: Ah!
[00:14:56] Azhelle Wade: We felt like
[00:14:57] Cameron Ring: we were kind of a well oiled machine. And, um Toy Fair, though, is an impressive event, and my advice is it's not just about your booth, it's not just about your pitch, it's about the networking, it's about meeting all these great people, it's about finding a new person, a new distributor, a new friend, and, um, it's a tight knit community that we're just now entering, and, um, But there's plenty of, uh, connections to be made.
[00:15:22] Azhelle Wade: Is this your first? This is our first Toy Fair. First Toy Fair, and you've been in business since 2019. Yeah. So I always tell my students, like, I have so many students that want to rush to Toy Fair, because it's the show that everyone knows about. So, like, when they first have their idea, I'm like, ah, I don't want to go to Toy Fair, and I'm like, no, no, no, don't go.
[00:15:36] Azhelle Wade: I'm like, don't rush when you're not ready, because it's almost worse than going, worse than not going at all. Because sometimes you can make a bad impression, you can make a bad context, or waste the money, and then not have money to invest in the business and start it in the first place. So, yeah. It's brilliant to go and get comfortable at other shows.
[00:15:52] Azhelle Wade: Then you come to this show and you are new, but you seem like a pro, you know? So people are like, Oh yeah, we'll work with you. It's like, yeah, yeah, it's always great. What's been the biggest surprise at Toy Fair for you?
[00:16:02] Cameron Ring: Uh, the scope, something about you walk in the Javits center here and my breath was taken away and it's massive and it's beautiful.
[00:16:11] Cameron Ring: And, the fact that we have a booth, and then you look over and you see Lego, uh, is inspiring, it's amazing. And then, someone is chatting at your booth, and you have a normal conversation, and then you look down and you realize they represent a billion dollar company. Yeah! You know that? That's so true. And, and it's, it's intense.
[00:16:30] Cameron Ring: It's bizarre, but it's awesome. And it's, it's game changing for us. It can be game changing for anybody. And we're going to start coming if we came on every year.
[00:16:37] Azhelle Wade: Yes. And be nice to whoever you meet at Toy Fair. You won't always be able to see the badge. And you have no idea who you're talking to.
[00:16:43] Azhelle Wade: Sometimes people wear other people's badges. Like I've noticed that. Yeah. Like you. Still have no idea, you have no idea who you're talking to until they tell you their name. That's a great tip. Oh, you've given such good tips. Okay, last question. For indie game designers and publishers thinking about attending Toy Fair in the future, what are the biggest do's and don'ts for making the most of this event?
[00:17:02] Cameron Ring: Um, do be yourself, be authentic, love your product, don't overthink it, it's just a booth and some pitches at the end of the day. It's about your product, like I said, it's about the game or the toy. Maybe, uh, there's no need to have a huge, like, waste all this money on a huge setup. If they even let you have a, they didn't even let us have, you know, a huge setup, but You're in the, in the launch pad?
[00:17:25] Cameron Ring: We are on the main, this floor. Oh, okay. And I know most of the games are below. Yeah. I don't know how that happened. Okay. Which is fine. But it was totally cool with us. Well, it was more of a, we would take what we could get, but just, um, it is just another convention at the end of the day. It is New York and it is scary, but it's good people.
[00:17:43] Cameron Ring: You have a good product and it's fun. This is the fun part. You know, looking at spreadsheets is not as fun as being somewhere and meeting fun people. So just go into it with an open mind. And again, uh, the networking is huge. Not just The, the cold pitches, but the walking around exploring is just as valuable as what you're doing behind your booth.
[00:18:03] Cameron Ring: So mix that in the open to new, new experiences and have fun.
[00:18:07] Azhelle Wade: Oh my gosh. Cameron from lost boy entertainment. Thank you so much. This is a great interview. You gave great tips. Anything you want to say before you head out?
[00:18:15] Cameron Ring: Uh, thank you for watching. Um, we're lost where entertainment and, um, if you ever have any questions, we're happy to answer them.
[00:18:21] Cameron Ring: Where can they reach out to you? You can find us at www dot. Lost boy entertainment. com or just type in Plunder a Pirate's Life and you'll find us and I will put the links in the show notes.
[00:18:33] Azhelle Wade: Thank you again so much. I know you got to get back to your booth. I hope you have a great rest of your show.
[00:18:37] Azhelle Wade: Likewise. Take care. Take care. Bye. Now before we dive into our conclusion of this week's interview, I'd like to read a review left by one of our listeners. This review comes from DoeRemy101. That's the username, but I know this is you, Gloria. Hi. So Gloria says, Jelle was previously in my program, so I can't believe it took me so long to review her podcast.
[00:19:00] Azhelle Wade: She says, I'm not in the toy industry, but as a PR coach for product makers, many who love toys, I love recommending them quality resources, and this is definitely one of them. Make sure to check out her Epi on click worthy subject lines, because she knows what she is talking about. Also love the range of shorter to the point episodes and longer, more in-depth interviews.
[00:19:21] Azhelle Wade: And everyone has such great energy, it's a community you'll want to be a part of. And the episode she's referencing is episode 2 51. So if you wanna listen to that, head over to the toy coach.com/ 2 5 1. Alright, let's dive into our conclusion of today's episode. Lost Boy Entertainment is definitely a company to watch from new releases to fresh takes on classic games.
[00:19:43] Azhelle Wade: It's clear that you guys are building something special. So thank you so much for catching up with me at Toy Fair, Cameron. And what I love my biggest and most favorite takeaway from our interview was the moment that you shared when I asked which of the distribution channels that you have right now, bring the most revenue to your business.
[00:20:00] Azhelle Wade: And your answer was they all actually bring revenue pretty evenly. Except certain products work more on certain channels. So it was really interesting to think about when you're deciding like, should I launch my line on Amazon? Should I launch it on my own website? Should I seek to work with a distributor?
[00:20:19] Azhelle Wade: And this interview really changed the, my thinking into. Let's look at which products might perform best on certain channels and perhaps not limit our product line to any one channel. So that was a great insight that Cameron, thank you so much for sharing it. If you found another insight that really spoke to use, you can send me a message on Instagram.
[00:20:42] Azhelle Wade: I'm at the toy coach. There's also a space where you can send me a message where you're listening to the podcast. I believe on Spotify or Apple, I do see those messages. Some of you are sending like. Like half messages because I think you don't think that they're getting to me, but they are. So send, send a message there and if it's something I can repeat on the podcast, I will.
[00:21:00] Azhelle Wade: Thank you again so much for being here. If you love this podcast and you haven't already left a review, well, what are you waiting for? Your reviews put a huge smile on my face. They keep me coming back week after week and seeking out incredible interview guests like our guest today, Cameron. Every time a new review comes into my email, I get excited.
[00:21:20] Azhelle Wade: My husband gets excited. So please stop what you're doing. If you can leave us a rating and review as always. Thank you so much for spending this time with me today. I know your time is valuable and that there are a ton of podcasts out there. So it truly means the world to me. That you tune into this one until next week.
[00:21:39] Azhelle Wade: I'll see you later. Toy people.
[00:21:42] Thanks for listening to the making it in the toy industry podcast with a shell way, head over to the toy coach. com for more information, tips, and advice.
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