Episode #117: The Importance of Play Every Day with Emma Worrollo
Listen Now
Tap Play Below or Listen On iTunes | Spotify | Google Podcasts
Do you know how to play? It seems like a simple question and your first thought might be, “of course I do!” but many adults today have forgotten how to play. As toy people, we know that play is necessary for the growth and development of children…but what about play in adults? Play is proven to help ease stress and inspire creative problem solving. So what do you do when the stresses of life stop you from playing or worse yet, you forget what play is to you? Well that’s where my guest today might be able to help.
Today’s podcast guest, Emma Worrollo of The Playful Den is focused on the importance of play and teaching how to play. Today on the podcast, we also touch on market research techniques and compare the differences and value of qualitative vs quantitative research. We dive into Emma’s process and success of building her own company and growing it into a multi million dollar business. This episode offers great insights for entrepreneurs and inventors who are starting to test their products with consumers. This episode is also great for parents and corporate executives who want to infuse more play in their everyday lives.
EPISODE CLIFF NOTES
The difference between qualitative and quantitative research. [02:00]
Find out how Emma built a 2.5 million dollar business from a freelance agency. [ 05:00]
Learn how you can use your sense of play…and how do you get it back? [20:50]
Find out if you might be a fun facilitator vs fun participator? [22:30]
Does play have to be physical and so far removed from work? Can you play in your work? [27:00]
What inspired Emma to develop her own toy products. [44:00]
-
This episode is brought to you by www.thetoycoach.com
Visit Emma’s website at PlayfulDen.com
Connect with Emma and The Playful Den on Instagram by clicking here.
Learn more about Dr. Peter Gray by clicking here.
-
[00:00:00] Azhelle Wade: Hey there, toy people. Welcome back to another episode of the toy coach podcast, making it in the toy industry. This is a weekly podcast brought to you by thetoycoach.com. Today's guest on the podcast is Emma Warrollo. Emma is an expert in play and has a background in children's research and generation studies. She founded global child and family, consumer insight agency called the pineapple lounge in 2010. As you spent over 11 years studying kid culture and working with brands, including Netflix, Nike, Hasbro Lego, Mattel, Unilever, Google, and Spotify today. Emma now channels her ability to look at the world with childlike wonder to help adults tune into their inner playful kid there were social media content, podcasts, and courses.
[00:00:51] Emma believes adopting a playful mindset for these adults up to enjoy parenting more cope, better with modern life and improve mental health. And that encourages her community to hashtag live playfully. I'll put the spelling in the show notes for that. And is currently working on growing the playful, den her brand into a consumer lifestyle brand and products business. You are listening to making it in the toy industry episode number 117.
[00:01:20] Jingle: Welcome to making it in the toy industry, a podcast for inventors and entrepreneurs like you. And now your host Azhelle Wade.
[00:01:30] Azhelle Wade: I'd like to welcome to the show Emma Warrollo. Welcome Emma.
[00:01:34] Emma Worrollo: Hello Azhelle thank you so much for having me and for that lovely intro.
[00:01:38] Azhelle Wade: Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited to do this full disclosure. We've done this once before. I totally lost the entire file. So thank you for coming back because that conversation was really good and I was so excited to air it and hopefully we can recreate that magic today.
[00:01:54] Emma Worrollo: It's going to be even better this time.
[00:01:56] Azhelle Wade: Yeah. This is going to be good. Let's start out. I would love to just talk about your story because, well, I remember the day you first followed me on Instagram and I, you know, I'm a baby Instagrammer, so I'm like constantly trying to grow my channel and then I saw someone named the playful den followed me and I looked you up. And I was like, oh my God, who is this influencer? I was like, why is she following me? And I thought I'd made it. So then I messaged, I messaged you and you were like, yeah, Okay. This is me like imagining what your accent was like.
[00:02:28] Yeah. Let's meet up and, you know, talk. And I was like, okay. And then, you know, we talked and you wanted, you know, yet ideas, what we could do together and for things that you wanted to create. And that was just a fantasy. But you impress me because you said, yeah, so I started my own business and just like grew it to a $2.5 million business. And I just left that and, you know, I was like, I'm sorry, what? So, can we talk a little bit about that first, a little bit about the pineapple lounge? How did you start that company? I want to hear the whole thing.
[00:03:01] Emma Worrollo: Yes. And that is exactly how I talk. Just like the queen. Um, yeah, I found you because I'm always going on about how I want to make toys. I've wanted to start a toy company for ever. Oh. And one of my followers messaged me and she was like, oh, do you listen to this podcast? Cause I'm always just going on about how, how do I make product? How do I do it? And someone sent it to me and I was like, wow. Perfect. So I went back to the beginning and I've been those of them. They were so helpful. I think it's so awesome. The content that you put out, it's so helpful, but yeah, pineapple lounge was my first business.
[00:03:40] So my background is in market research and qualitative research specifically, which in case anyone doesn't know what that is, is the type of research that is talking to people face to face. So there's two types of research, quality and quantity. Quantity is numbers, data points and quotes. More like the why the feelings, the depth. So I started the pineapple lounge in 2010 after working as a qual researcher and specializing in kids for a little bit. And I just thought the way that agencies are. Gathering information about this new generation feels outdated to me. It needs some fresh life breathed into how we go about studying generations and how we capture data depths data on a generation that consumes media so differently than any other generation.
[00:04:34] So I ran that business. For 11 years, we grew into a global agency. We had offices in London and New York team of 15 people, amazing portfolio of clients. And yeah, I'm very recently exited. And just before the pandemic, I actually had my third child and then we kind of navigated our way. Through the pandemic as a business, I'm a me with a newborn. And then I thought, actually, this is there. I would like to take my passion that I have for play and do something else with it. So I'm sort of a year into my exploratory journey of playful, Dan, and sort of what comes next after my big corporate agency career.
[00:05:18] Azhelle Wade: First question I wrote down because I didn't want to forget it. How did you change how information and data was collected in service? What's one of the big overarching methods that you think you introduced that was new to that process.
[00:05:30] Emma Worrollo: Yeah, we did all sorts of things. Like we used to say with quote, you're sort of always wanting to get to the truth to the depth. That's not so much about massive sample sizes, but it's about real behavior. And obviously when you're interviewing children, if you bring them into like a focus group facility and you sit them in front of a male, Right. It's a very strange environment for adults as well, actually, um, for kids even more so. And then you're also asking them a lot of the, the type of information we want relies on memory. So you want to know, when do you play games? When do you watch TV? When do you play with your toes? And it's really hard for us to remember that for children, they are so in the moment. That's what children are. They're completely present in the moment. It's actually quite difficult for them to grasp information about their behavior out of context.
[00:06:24] Particularly in an environment they've never been in before with a stranger doesn't matter how nice and friendly and trustworthy you are. So it was all about finding methods to get us into the moment. So the whole kind of thing about the pineapple lounge was I want to be the agency that isn't looking down on kids like their specimens, or it doesn't feel like we're speaking, like teachers or parents, like we are in the playground with them. Like we're there. Like we have an open door to be in the. Circle of what's going on. And we did that through lots of different methods. One of them, we were the first to put GoPros on children and study them playing fast pass and for edge of them playing and I'm walking around and literally like allowing us and our clients to step into that point of view, which is amazing.
[00:07:15] Azhelle Wade: That is so cool.
[00:07:18] Emma Worrollo: Remember I did this study about boys and my client was really struggling to convince anyone in the business that boys were interested in. Anything other than weapon play. And a lot of research will throw up these kinds of data points. Boys and more attracted to action toys and, and you have to look at like how that data is collected. And, and anyway, we put cameras on a few kids and we watched hours of footage of how they played. And there was a lot of that. Play, but what you would all say Natus is that they would bring in female characters into their play. They would bring in kind of more nurturing moments that maybe were known was around.
[00:08:01] They would see these little moments and we just had all of this like amazing data to show the variety actually within their play patterns. But what was marketed to them was this almost sort of like generic surface level. This is how boys play. This is what is sold. So a method like that was really, really good at finding those tiny little moments that like no one really gets to see that showed that kind of breadth of how they played. So we did, we did a lot of that. And then we also did a lot of, like I say, dead, the businesses. I'm still smashing. It is wonderful. Uh, we do a lot digital communities, a lot of stuff on, so they could come log in every day.
[00:08:42] So it's more, again, it's kind of more tracking them over time, rather than just a one moment. And a lot of with the older kids, like streetscaping. So, you know, back in the days when we could go and hang out with people, we would, you know, meet them at their home. We do bedroom tools. We'd go out into like New York and London and get them to take photos of designs that they liked. And. Kind of stimulus that we could use for semiotic analysis. So analyzing how they are attracted to sign symbols, colors, that sort of thing. So yeah, a lot of like really in-depth technique much more about depth than breadth.
[00:09:16] Azhelle Wade: Oh, I love that. Okay. Thank you. I, and I, now I'm remembering, I asked you this question last time we chatted. I always encourage my students to go out there and kind of like do some market research, but talking to you, it's so hard. How helpful it would be if you could afford to have an agency be a part of that, or at least gather some data that maybe an agency. Collected on their own, that's available to the public to purchase. How realistic is it for somebody who's like an independent toy creator to work with an AIG, whether it's pineapple lounge or just others that you know about?
[00:09:47] Emma Worrollo: Yeah, it's very expensive, but I think even if you know, someone that has. Skills in moderation or that could run an interview that could do that for you, because you have to remember if you have invented something, you have massive bias. And even if you are like, really I'm going to be completely objective, and I'm going to take a step back. You're not going to be able to ask the questions in a way that's not going to be. By that bias. That is why companies use agencies, because it would be really dangerous if they did all their research themselves. Because somewhere along the lines it would get polluted. Um, so that's, if you have access to someone, even if it's not an agency.
[00:10:33] Just someone good with talking to people that you could say, look, these are the key things that I want to find out. Here's some open questions that I want to ask. And so you can be the observer, take a step back and rather than worrying about, you know, keeping the conversation flowing and what am I going to ask next and trying to listen at the same time, like active listening is so different to being in the moment in the conversation. So even if you have someone else that can do that for you. Or you could perhaps do it more, a written kind of thing, or over a few texts. Something like that, that just sort of slightly removes you. So you're managing your own bias. That's probably something I'd say to just be aware of.
[00:11:12] Azhelle Wade: Oh, I love that. So how in the world did you start this company that just blew up into a multi-million dollar company? That's what I mean. Okay. This is a selfish. I just want to know this answer to this question, even though I already know, but please, how did that happen.
[00:11:28] Emma Worrollo: Slowly. I would say it definitely wasn't an overnight success. I think I was just very good. Um, so I didn't really. Well, I didn't have any business experience. I didn't actually even have any management experience. I was very good at pitching and winning projects and designing research and coming up with methodologies. And some clients really liked the combination of my strategic thinking and my personality, because I have a natural inclination to try and make things more fun and enjoyable. And I just started as a freelancer. So it sounds very, you know, when you look at the sort of way.
[00:12:07] Took it too. And what we've built, that seems, even to me now on the other side, I'm like, whew, that was a lot. Um, but at the beginning it really wasn't, it was just me as a freelancer building up my client base and then. So I was doing all of the kids' business for one particular agency and they were like, Hey, do you want a job? No. Do you want to set up a unit here? No. And I was like, look, this is what I'm doing. This is my brand. And we just went into business together, which there were pros and cons. So. Probably as well, you, as sort of protected, I got to use their infrastructure, their resources.
[00:12:43] I had mentors, cons. I obviously gave away equity in my business to kind of scaffold it. But you know, it really suited me at the time. Cause I started when I had, um, a six month old baby, I was a new mom and I was trying to figure out how can I still be ambitious and, um, what I want to earn and do what I want to do, but also. Be with my family. Is that even a thing? So that's kind of how I started just small and just as a freelancer. And then we just, you know, few clients built up word travels very quickly. Um, you know, you do some good jobs, you get a good reputation, clients come back and we just, we just build it up.
[00:13:18] Azhelle Wade: That's beautiful. So while you were doing that, were you at the same time creating your brand, the playful den?
[00:13:24] Emma Worrollo: No, not at all. No. Say playful den is not that old. So that was.
[00:13:29] Azhelle Wade: Wait. Like, so your whole Instagram, when did you start that?
[00:13:33] Emma Worrollo: I think it's like three or four years old.
[00:13:35] Azhelle Wade: What?. I am so jealous right now. How do they, how did that begin?
[00:13:40] Emma Worrollo: The playful den started because. It was my personal Instagram channel. So I had an Instagram channel. That was my name and my . And in the kids insight world, I was always like, oh my God, what this stuff, this knowledge that I have is absolute gold dust to parents because I was learning about, you know, screen time and media and role models and characters. And I kind of had this like sixth sense intuition for how these kids engaged with these new platforms that to parents were quite like, oh my God. And I was like, I feel like I need to get this out into the world. So playful den was like, have a really creative brain. That's quite amazing to live with, but it can be quite difficult to also manage and playful den was a bit like mine. Just sort of like pool for access thoughts. So I would just be like, boom. The stories was what I did like nonstop at the beginning.
[00:14:33] Just like talking, talking, talking, it's very cathartic for me because I could sort of share like these thoughts I was having about, you know, the new generation and having thing and what I was observing. And it just built really organically. Same with my agents. They've never done it. Ads or marketing or anything. Wow. Just word of mouth organic gain. The same as Instagram, just completely organic following. So then I sort of got more into it. And then when I realized that, yeah, I did want to leave pineapple lounge. I really didn't know how to do that and it was quite scary. It was quite emotional. And I think it's sort of almost like. Building up playful den was like me creating, I wasn't like earning money from it or anything, but I I've. I created something that essentially, when I left the pineapple lounge, I was like, okay, there's something here for me to work with.
[00:15:25] Azhelle Wade: For sure. You create a whole brand brands or businesses now. So yeah. Yeah. Wow. Okay. As we were chatting, I realized there was one thing we said last time that we should really say it again. If somebody is going to perform their own market research, how big of a pool should they do for qualitative versus quantitative?
[00:15:42] Emma Worrollo: It depends what it's for. So if you're looking for proof of concept and it's quite developed, and you're not really going to change it that much, then you probably want numbers. If you are more in the stage of concept development and you want to optimize and you want to maybe. Updates to like the look, the, feel, the language, how they actually play with it to make adjustments there. Then depth is always more important in my opinion, but they're a little bit kind of, we disagree sometimes, but it say so, so sampling is really important. So if you can get the right people and the right people in terms of the demographics, but also people that are going to be engaged and they're going to be able to kind of really converse with you in a meaningful way. Those people are always going to be so valuable to you than like your mate that might just go, that's amazing. You should make that. Yeah, small sample sizes is great for depth, but also consider who actually is in that sample. That's really important.
[00:16:49] Azhelle Wade: Okay. Yeah. And I remember you telling, I said, well, do you need a hundred people? And they're like, no, 10 people is good. Honestly, you said in your experience, you even see if one person says something. Typically you're going to find another person to follow that.
[00:17:03] Emma Worrollo: I think so. I mean, it's not just true of life. You're never alone in your thoughts or you there's always someone else having the same thoughts. Say you sort of want to reach a point where you're starting to hear the same thing. So, you know, in basic basic quote, research focus group research after like six focus groups, You start to just hear the same thing over and over again. And you know, sometimes you get these clients and they were more thinking about it from a quantum point of view. And they'd be like, this just is not enough people for this.
[00:17:33] And you'd be like, well, if you do more groups, you were just going over the same ground. And that's another interesting thing to consider asking the same question over and over again is more likely just going to get you the same answer. So don't be afraid to build as you go. If you're doing interviews, if you're doing great. You know, what you had in the last one, change something or update what you're asking in the next one. You know, it should be, it can be a more fluid process where you're building on the learning, not just repeating the same information each time.
[00:18:05] Azhelle Wade: Yeah. I tell this story a lot. When I was first starting my costume company, I had a friend come over and she. Helping fit my clothes. I just, I was like, oh, I just want to use you for your body. Please come over and try this on. I want to make sure the sizes are right. And she immediately said, are you going to sell these on Etsy? And I was like, no, I have my own website. I'm not going to sell it on Etsy. They take a cut, like that's silly. And she's like, I really feel like people would look for something like this on Etsy. And I did not listen to her. I didn't. I was like, absolutely not. She doesn't know what I mean.
[00:18:36] And to this day, when what's it been like maybe a year, maybe two later, I finally put them on Etsy and I got sales so much easier and so much faster. Like I was putting so much money behind trying to get sales on my own website and then putting it on Etsy. It was like so much more organic. And the people were giving reviews and like, it was so much more, it was so much better. And I, at that point it was like, wow, I just wasted like two years of my life, not listening because I thought she's just one person. She doesn't know. I've been reading all the internet, marketing, everything. She doesn't know.
[00:19:10] Emma Worrollo: That's quite a good example, you know? And I was talking about managing your own bias. I bet if you'd have been in the room and she was having that conversation with someone else, you would have just tuned in and. Huh exactly. You're, you know, you're a curious, smart person you'd have been like, that's interesting. Maybe I'll look into that, but because it's direct to you, you're sort of deflecting there almost, and it's probably you just protecting rather than being sort of open.
[00:19:38] Azhelle Wade: So true. I definitely was, especially because I was having her come in for what was like the final stages of my launch. So in my head. From this point, we're going to lunch. And then what she was saying was taking me back and I was like, oh no, no, we don't have time for them. One at a time of that. Actually. I want to hang out with her soon. I'm going to tell her that story. I don't know if I've ever actually told her how much she's influenced my business today. Okay. I would love to talk about how most people, basically the whole foundation of your now business and brand, how most people need to learn to play. Yeah. So I'm shocked that people are struggling to play, but you said being a mother, it can happen. Can you just explain how that happens? How does someone lose their sense of play?
[00:20:20] Emma Worrollo: So when you're a playful person, like you are, can be quite hard to understand how other people don't have this in their lives, but. The sort of like middle age, which I think is my birthday this week. I think I'm like nearly officially middle age. It's like when people can really lose their place. So we play very instinctively as children it's encouraged, we're expected to do so as we get into adolescents, we might have. Start to play a little bit less. We may figure out I'm actually not that good at that thing that I really enjoy say that person over there is really good at it. So I'm going to snip that out. Cause now I'm feeling a bit self-conscious and all that goes on and we might start to reduce our activities.
[00:21:02] And then we kind of get into grown-up life a little bit further up. Incomes, all of the shirts, you should get a job. You should get a career. You should be on the property by ladder by now, you should get married. You should have a child. All these sorts of things come in and they can really interfere with play because they become so important. I'm in the UK, you're in the U S we both live in productivity centered culture. So all of those shifts are coming out as all the time. So we have so many things on our to do. That seems so important because we are grownups now and we do grown-up things and we have grownup responsibilities. We've got bills to pay and mouths to feed, and maybe we're in like relationships that are complicated and all of this sort of stuff.
[00:21:47] Lose touch with our playfulness and we lose our curiosity. We go from being in sort of beginner's mindset as we are when we're children all the time learning and being curious, do you have more fixed mindset? I know that now this is what I do this isn't, you know, an and we're sort of like less open to new experiences and I'm a parent and most of my community are parents. And this also can happen a lot. Once you have children, you become a fun. And not a fun participator as I call it because you're always serving others. And quite often you were at the bottom of your to-do list and the problem is when you stopped playing and perhaps when you're experiencing play deprivation.
[00:22:26] Azhelle Wade: Deprivation, that sounds heavy. Okay.
[00:22:28] Emma Worrollo: Yeah, it's a thing. It's a thing you can get to the point where you're like, I don't even know. Wifi and fun anymore because your voices will be sort of numbing out vices, passive. Maybe you've been lots of content drinking, eating, like all of these things, which I'm not saying I don't do and don't have a place in moderation, but those become our sort of fun because they're easy and because we're naked and because we're burnt out or whatever it might be. And we sort of thing, I don't even know what I find fun anymore. So that is a genuine thing that can happen. Yeah. I yeah. Put out content and talk about this and encourage people to reconnect and understand what their play personality is. I think we hear a lot of messages about like, do more of what you love or do what makes you happy or take time for yourself.
[00:23:17] And I like to be more specific what everyone is saying in those messages is play more. And I think when you understand, and you have a kind of action behind it, it's like, okay. Yeah. I, when did I. Play and understanding what play is just doing something that is for no other reason, just for fun. And to understand that there's a real relationship between taking time to play a move towards joy and our mental health. It can't fix everything, but returning constantly to those moments of joy, it can be really, really transformation. So, yeah, so that's kind of the message that I I'm putting out into the world. And, and, and there's lots of other interesting speakers and thought leaders that do the same as well. But I think, I think we're still in our early stages to be honest of understanding the science of play and the power behind it.
[00:24:06] Azhelle Wade: I agree.
[00:24:06] Emma Worrollo: It's a little bit like, you know, when we suddenly know everything about sleep, it feels like we've been through that in the last few years. And suddenly I'm just like, oh my God know, All this stuff about sleep and how it affects literally everything. That's so true. And I think that's kind of where we're at with play. Like we know enough and we know that it can have these like magical effects on us, but I still don't think we're quite there yet with unleashing its true potential.
[00:24:35] Azhelle Wade: Ooh. I feel like that might be a fun thing for you and I to document on our social channels. Okay. I'm going to do a week doing things like I normally do and talk about it. And then I'm going to do a week where I am. Well, you probably already do this where I intentionally interject play one hour, every three hours or something. And see if that increases my productivity. Maybe those are the kind of studies we're missing to get to know like.
[00:24:58] Emma Worrollo: Yeah, definitely. I think that's what I have done since I left my last job. I was like, I am quitting my big girl job to play because I was like in cycles of burnout, like, and had some really gnarly experiences, literally ending up in hospital with an anxiety attack from like work related stress and pressure. And I would go into these cycles. And it was sort of the same. And I was sort of like very up and down just from being constantly plugged into the corporate world and also say being at a stage in my career where I wasn't playing as much at work, it wasn't as fun for me. I loved all the people. I loved the projects, but it wasn't quite aligned too, you know.
[00:25:43] What I felt like I wanted to put into the world or, or spend, you know, all of this time doing so. Yeah. I started cold water, sea swimming and brought back roller skating and yeah. But one of those things back into my life and it sort of culminated in me. Yeah. Making a big career change and just seeing what would happen if I spent more time playing and it is really. Transformation. It's obviously also a massive privilege to be able to do that and say that, but yeah, I try and kind of bang that drum because you can find everyday moments of playfulness, whatever your schedule and current situation is.
[00:26:21] Azhelle Wade: So everyone listening, we are alive right now in the toy creators academy, Facebook group. So we have some comments I wanted to share. One person says we need to play as grownups too. I love it. And then Kristen Ireland says she it's fascinating. Read scientific studies that are done on the importance of play. And Jolene said that she's creating a project to help adults claim plays also. That's great. I have a question for you. Do you think play has to be something that. Like so physical and maybe so far removed from work because my fiance is always like, Michelle, you work so much. And all my friends like chill, you're always working, but there are points in my work where I think it's play because it's the thing.
[00:27:04] That's not really work. That's driving like profit and it's not work. That is like really what I have to do, but it's a little things that I enjoy. So I'll dive deep. And an example of that for me is like my website. Like, everyone's always like, oh, shatter your website. So beautiful who designs it? Who did it?
[00:27:20] And I'm like, I did it because I really enjoy diving in and like learning HTML. So like, I'll go and say, oh, I have a task. I need to go on my website and like upload a video and then I'll do that. But then while I'm there, I'm like, oh, you know what? This would look so cool if like it would scroll and then image would pop up or something. And then I'll just go down a rabbit hole of doing that. And it is not conducive to my time. But I find it really fun, but then everyone sees that as work. And I don't know. I'm like, is that play or is that still work? I don't. I feel like maybe, I don't know. What would you say?
[00:27:52] Emma Worrollo: Hey, it could be play. Absolutely. It could be. The link to your business, it's a part of your work, but in theory, you could outsource that someone. And if I was going to be strict, I'd say you probably should be outsourcing that because your time could be spent where you give more value back to the business, but the fact that you want to do it and have chosen to do it and enjoy it, then it probably is play. Whereas, and perhaps it comes with less pressure. So when we look at the characteristics of play, we are active and alive. But non-stressed, um, it's a part of your slots since your work, but perhaps there, you feel less pressure, you feel more free, perhaps you are less focused on like the perfect outcome. Whereas perhaps when you're trying to, I don't know, do you sales for some of your courses and things like that? It's more work-related because there's a specific outcome that you're chasing that. A hundred percent, like. Preparing a podcast episode. It's like, oh my gosh, it's so stressful because I know people are expecting a certain level.
[00:28:56] Azhelle Wade: So I have to deliver that as you're so right. And I love this because in the world that I live in, then like the marketing world, there are always these conversations about the tasks that caused you to waste a lot of time that, like you said, you should be outsourcing, but no one has ever dissected that to me anyway, in a way. Maybe the reason you enjoy doing those tasks is because to you, it feels like play. And that's an interesting concept.
[00:29:23] Emma Worrollo: Yeah, 100%. And when you were describing that, you look at some of the characteristics of the activity and if you will learning, which I think you said, so you're learning, so you're not an expert in it. So you have beginner mindset, you have curiosity, you're learning, you're acquiring a new skill. You don't really know what's going to happen. Probably feels a little bit spontaneous. You're experimenting. Uh, great consequence. There's no like big box. That's going to come down and be like, well, you wasted two hours find the right image. So you'll play, you're allowed to experiment and fail and try again. So we can't really ever say that work can be play because ultimately we're working for a purpose. We're working for a Greer to our money, but we can absolutely play. At work or we can be playful at work where we take the characteristics of play and we apply them to different activities, which sounds like you found one.
[00:30:18] Azhelle Wade: Yeah. I love it. I will research HTML coding all day.
[00:30:23] Emma Worrollo: And interestingly, like towards the end of my time at my agency, I didn't feel like I was playing because I was sorry, this is going to sound really egotistical, but I was such an expert and I was so sharp on what I was doing. The problems were continually the same. It's not like I was like the best I could ever be ever. Like completed it. But I did to a level that I wanted to, and I wasn't learning as much as I wanted to. I wanted to design and like create and just like come up with ideas all the time. And I still had to kind of do all of this other stuff and it didn't matter how many times. Did my role around, it was always going to follow me around because of my existence in the company. So I lacked that ability to find more playful outlets at work.
[00:31:12] Azhelle Wade: Yeah, that is, I felt the same thing in my corporate job. I wasn't, like you said, like the best I was ever going to be yet, but it did start to feel cyclical where I was like, I know what this is going. I know how I'm going to solve this problem. I know who, what teammate's going to be on this. And it was a little bit too easy. There was no discovery. Yeah. So you mentioned characteristics of play. Do you have like a set characteristics of play that you teach?
[00:31:38] Emma Worrollo: Yeah. So the one I was quoting that is from Dr.
[00:31:42] Peter Gray, you should definitely watch his Ted talks. He's amazing. And his characteristics are so full. So for no other objective, just for fun and element of surreal or imagination. Active and alert, but not stressed.
[00:31:58] Azhelle Wade: I guess. That's to weed out, just watching like a fantasy movie is active and alert. Yeah. Sitting down, watching a fantasy movie is not what he means.
[00:32:08] Emma Worrollo: It wasn't interesting in what not because people sort of say. Is me watching a TV show, play oats that say not, not really no, because you're, you know, you're kind of passive. However, if you then went on to, I don't know, debate that with a group of friends or you went into. Make some memes on it. Oh, I don't know. Like you did something else around it, then it could be play. And the other characteristics are being self chosen and self-directed so that's really important. So that means essentially there's no one telling you to do it. This is why in the children's world, you hear people say, talk about child play a lot. And that means essentially letting children control their own play world rather than an adult game. We're going to do this craft and it's going to come out like this.
[00:32:54] And here's how you have to do it again. Not saying there's not a space for that, but that's not child led. So, yeah, when we are playing as adults, it needs to be completely self-chosen and self-directed. And I think also when you get older and you become a grownup, there's a lot of people pleasers out there. And there's a lot of people, particularly women who just go along and do what other people want to do. This is very important in, in moments of play that it is for you. You want to do it. You're not doing it for anyone else. You're also not doing it for extrinsic motivation. You're not doing it. Uh, on your social media or to like show off to someone you are doing it purely for you.
[00:33:32] Azhelle Wade: Interesting. Oh yeah. I could see me losing touch with that. You know, I started my whole career in the Twain. She was a big chunk of it was in crafts and then the craft activity space. I remember when I was doing all my market research I would notice a lot of the crafts would be, this is what you make. And then when you open up the box, there's literally only enough pieces to make that one thing. And that one way, and if you try to go outside of that thing, you'll either not have enough pieces to finish it, or it won't work. Like it's almost like a puzzle. More than a craft. So when I started making craft products, it was really important to me that there were more pieces than you needed to create the product and that the packaging showed it being made in different ways. So like the front of the box might be this way, but then on the back of the box, things would be mixed up in another way. And I remember it was such a struggle because I would have to balance the margin. The company wanted to. The quality of the goods that we wanted the child to have, and then be able to include like excess materials was really tough because half margins are really tight, but it was so important to me that the instructions were not the only way you could make something because that's very limiting.
[00:34:40] Emma Worrollo: Yeah, definitely. And particularly with generation alpha kids, one of the things that they love so much about digital spaces and why they want to go there all the time is because there's no boundaries and they can create in a very limitless way. Like you can design an avatar in a way that just isn't possible to create in the real world. And that's very attractive to them to be able to personalize things in such a specific way. So many options, like literally building their own worlds. They also lead much more structured lives. So there's a lot more extracurricular. There's a lot more homework. Recess time has reduced. There's less free play outside. So their lives are a lot more structured. So what we observe is when they do have free time, they want to feel free. They don't want to feel restricted. So I think allowing those possibilities for them to create. I mean, it's always been important, but I think it's really important as an industry that we keep providing products and tools for them to do that rather than just sort of serving up pre-made things.
[00:35:46] Azhelle Wade: Yeah. Push button toys, and one way to make craft kids like, yeah. Let's give them more options. I would love to hear your opinion on this. I was recently recording a segment for access daily about kid entrepreneurs. One of them asks me, they were like, Michelle, why are there so many kid entrepreneurs today? And I had my own reason, but I also sometimes worry about these kid entrepreneurs because when I was young, I was an entrepreneur. But in the, in the sense of like, I had a Lisa Frank jewelry box, I brought it to school and I started selling. But these kids are like making toys, getting patents, having baking businesses, having ice, pop businesses with logos and machinery and like selling it. And I'm not sure, like, is it play or is it too soon that they're getting into work? Like what do you think's happening? With this whole entrepreneurial thing, kids are doing these days.
[00:36:35] Emma Worrollo: I mean, wow. I was like so far away from that. I was basically just like going around on my bike. Um, yeah. I've seen it. Yeah. And I think many things about it. Um, I, I suppose it would be individual circumstances that would allow us to understand is that play for the child or is that becoming something else? It's interesting because it's so easy to look back with rose tinted glasses and say, oh, it all feels too much. It's too pressured. It's too over the top. But you know, your example that you just use. Chances are, if there were some of these platforms around, it would have been like really exciting to see how do we take that to the next level? And that's how kids play going. Like, how do I level up, how do I level up, how to level up? And there are all of these tools available to them and it is unsurprising to me that they are leveraging.
[00:37:38] For their creative ideas now where we have to be careful is that that doesn't merge into something kind of Markia. That's not fun and it becomes pressure. And I think we also have to think about protecting childhood and childhood, not being a place for productivity. I do worry. Many parents kind of have this almost like covering all bases mentality to raising kids. And I empathize because we don't know what the future is going to be. Like, we don't even know what state of the planet is going to be. We don't even know what , they're going to be like earning and, and sort of using, we don't know. So many unknown.
[00:38:22] So a lot of parents, there's no kind of like route to success, which was slightly problematic for many kids that were pushed down that. And now I'm like, actually I don't, I don't do that. I didn't want to do this job. I wanted to like do this thing that I love. But I think for these kids, they're almost like covering all basis. It's like learn the second language, learn the instrument, do the extracurricular. Have the entrepreneurial business get on your social media, like become a gaming pro. Like there's, it's sort of like it's a lot and it's like, we just need to be okay with kids. Just like mucking them out and experimenting because that's where all the magic happens.
[00:38:58] Azhelle Wade: I agree. Like I, so when I think about my childhood, which was very entrepreneurial cause my mom was an entrepreneur all my life. And I had a jewelry business that got shut down because my teacher said I couldn't run a business at school. I had a newspaper that we would like create for the whole class and have like special articles. And I had a bunch of different jobs like businesses. I started, but had my. Made me or helped me go. So in, on any one idea, I would've just done that one idea and I wouldn't have played around with like all these weird businesses that I did and I wouldn't have learned all the, like, I remember the jewelry business, for example. I was making and selling like regular jewelry, like a regular, the first idea you would have.
[00:39:42] And then all the kids wanted these little jump rings that I had in my jewelry box. And I didn't know why, but everybody wanted them. And they were so small and I had so many, I was selling them for like 10 cents a piece. And then I realized they were all wearing them as nose rings and it had become like, Bad at the school, but because they were so small, people were losing them. So then they would come back and they would buy it again. So then I was like, we're upping the price to 25 cents. It's a nose ring, nose ring. Then I had like my friends that wanted to work for me. So they were like my little employees and it like turned into this weird little business. But it was just fun. There were like, I would pay them like their portion. I had no idea of margin, but if I had known all of that, I would have never experimented. I probably wouldn't have hired like four of my friends to sell nose rings. If I had done the margin exercise and notice like, oh wait, I'm not making any money.
[00:40:32] Emma Worrollo: Yeah. And why do you think is good about these kid entrepreneurs is role modeling and encouraging other children to bring their ideas to life and try things out is amazing. And I didn't know anything about business. I don't have anyone in my family that has worked in like the corporate sector or had a business or anything like that. Wow. What in the medical profession, I still think quite confused about what. I'm doing. Um, so I didn't know anything about that. And I think actually having those sort of like transformational moments in childhood, they don't have to be big. I don't need to blow up on the internet, but in the same way that like jumping off the big diving board or going down that like hill on your bike, like you can remember those moments and bravery for some kids.
[00:41:18] They're not really. Uh, physical like that, or kind of adrenaline seekers, but actually to like bring an idea to life and to put it out there into the world and be like, does anyone want to like, buy this, play with this, like, look at this. Like that's really brave. And I think that's cool. I think I do think that is really cool because these kids are going to have so many things to do. Unfortunately, when they become adults to progress the world and they need creativity, like. I think of a more important skill, maybe empathy and creativity for generation alpha going into the future. They're going to need to think really differently and be okay with ideas, which kind of break the status quo. So I think that is a sort of positive side of this sort of kid hustle culture.
[00:42:07] Azhelle Wade: That's true. No, that's true. But I still remember that decision to make them 25 cents. So yes, very important opportunity spoiling. Isn't it. Brilliant. Brilliant. Okay. Before I let you go, I want to talk a little bit about your programs, because you did say you have an offer that might be helpful to repair. Yes. What is that offer?
[00:42:30] Emma Worrollo: Yeah, I run a playful parenting course with a child psychologist. Dr. . Our next one is in March. It's a three-week course. It's a really tight group and we just help parents transform their mindset to a playful one playful. It's such a useful state of being when you have kids, because playful people they're really good at making boring things fun. And there's quite a lot of boring stuff involved in raising children. And there's a lot of tensions and learning to live with one another and all of those sorts of things. So when we say playful parenting, it's not about sitting down and like playing with your kids for like six hours every day because I, for one have. Really done that. Um, it's about quality over quantity. It's about how to have a lightness in your relationship and in your home and how to sort of look for those opportunities to bring more fun in as a way to connect with your children. So you can go and check that out on my website, playful den.com and come join us if it's interesting to you.
[00:43:30] Azhelle Wade: Yes. And where else my listeners can find you online?
[00:43:34] Emma Worrollo: Instagram playful den, you can find me there and you can sign up to my newsletter via my website, which will keep you up to date with everything that's going on. I'm sort of brand new shiny website. Um, yeah. So in the process of, yeah, perhaps launching my own product. So I think for a lot of your listeners and subscribers, I'm sort of on my own toy journey as well as that might be quite.
[00:43:59] Azhelle Wade: Oh, yeah. I wish didn't touch on your toy journey at all. What I could I ask you a couple of questions about, okay. So what inspired you to create a toy product?
[00:44:08] Emma Worrollo: So I have been a consultant to lots of the big toy brands for many many years. And I think during that time, I've always sort of like observed some of the like big shifts that sometimes I feel quite frustrated about that don't happen. And I think I've just sort of almost accumulated a vision for what a non. Dream really cool quirky toy brand could look like. Um, and in particular, I'm interested in creating a toy company that does not deal in demographics. So has products that really cut through age is not really interested in gender or playing into any of the kind of like gender play patterns and. Creates play tools for life. So really my philosophy of how do you play more at life? So taking some of the everyday like challenges and moments and creating play tools, love that to work with. Those is what I would like to create.
[00:45:09] Azhelle Wade: Let's make it happen.
[00:45:10] Emma Worrollo: I'm going to need your help.
[00:45:11] Azhelle Wade: I'm here. I'm ready. I was actually thinking, I was like, great. After we sign off, we're going to do. Like that's a big deck fee. Okay. Sounds fantastic. Okay. Toy people. I've never done this before, but I want to do my conclusion while we're together. Toy people thank you so much for joining me today. Me and Emma Worrollo, I feel like I have to say your last name with an accent or it doesn't work. So it doesn't. Thank you for joining us today, we learned about qualitative research, quantitative research, characteristics of play. Also, I want to recap the characteristics. If you have them on hand, I believe it was that it's imaginative that it's self-lead and there were two more.
[00:45:51] Emma Worrollo: Self chasing self-directed is done for the means rather than the ends, which means that there's no objective other than fun has an element of imagination and is conducted in an alert and active frame of mind, but not the stress.
[00:46:05] Azhelle Wade: And those were characteristics we pulled from Dr. Peter Gray. So if you'd like to learn more about those, check out his Ted talks online. Thank you so much for joining us here today. I know there are a ton of podcasts out there, so it means the world to me that you tune into this one. Until next week. I'll see you later toy people.
[00:46:23] Jingle: Thanks for listening to making it in the toy industry podcast with a shell Wade and over to the toy coach.com for more information, tips and advice.
-
🎓Learn more about how you can develop and pitch your toy idea with Toy Creators Academy® by clicking here to visit toycreatorsacademy.com and join the waitlist.
Not ready for the Toy Creators Academy online course? Start by connecting with fellow toy creators inside our online community. Click here to join.