Episode #139: The ONE Thing You Need To Do BEFORE You Launch That Toy Kickstarter
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Kickstarter is just a platform for product presales? Right? Wrong! Sales is an important aspect of the platform, but today’s episode is all about how Kickstarter can actually help you develop an authentic community for your toy or game idea. Today’s guest launched a Kickstarter and funded his original game idea in just 4 days. Then he went back and launched another successful campaign for an expansion pack for the game!
Today you will hear from Joe Slack, a board game designer. In addition to designing games he has also taught courses on board game design and wrote an internationally best selling book: The Board Game Designer’s Guide. He funded his solo play game Relics of Rejavihara on Kickstarter, then also funded the expansion pack Montalo’s Revenge on the platform.
Joe tells you how he used social media organically to get people interested in his board game, how he strategically planned his second Kickstarter campaign, and some of the options for fulfillment and shipping partners when doing a Kickstarter for a game. You’ll also find out what a pledge manager is and why you might want to use one once your Kickstarter campaign is over. If you’ve got a crowdfunding campaign going for your toy or game, or you’re thinking about making one, listen to this episode!
EPISODE CLIFF NOTES
Find out how Joe used social media in an organic way to reel people into his Kickstarter. [00:05:23]
Learn how Joe strategically timed the expansion pack and 2nd Kickstarter to keep people engaged with the game. [00:11:04]
Learn what a pledge manager is and how it can help you after a Kickstarter campaign. [00:15:19]
Find out the differences between using a pledge manager and having your own website. [00:17:27]
Find out the benefits of working with a fulfillment partner for your toy or game Kickstarter. [00:18:19]
Learn why you might want to work with more than one fulfillment partner. [00:21:06]
Find out a strategic pricing method to make high shipping costs less painful for Kickstarter backers. [00:22:08]
Learn how you can sell directly to retailers from Kickstarter. [00:24:59]
Find out the most important piece of advice Joe has for creating a Kickstarter. [00:27:15]
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This episode is brought to you by www.thetoycoach.com
Listen to the previous episode with Joe Slack by clicking here.
Visit Joe Slack’s website by clicking here.
Follow Joe Slack on Instagram.
Follow Joe Slack on Twitter.
Watch the video of Relics of Rajavihara: Montalo’s Revenge here.
Find out more about Fireball Island here. The game that blew Joe’s mind as a child.
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[00:00:00] Azhelle Wade: You are listening to making it in the toy industry episode number 139.
[00:00:05] Joe Slack: And there's two aspects of shipping, you really have to take into account. There's the freight shipping, and then there's the fulfillment cost. So the freight shipping is really getting your game from point A to point B. So a lot of people don't really think about this, but you know, your game is often made in China but then you've gotta get it to the port. And from there, it's got to be unloaded and then it's gotta be sent to wherever your fulfillment partner is located. So there's a lot of different stops along the way. So you have to cover what the costs are at all those stages. And generally you don't charge your backers for those freight costs.
[00:00:36] Azhelle Wade: Hey there toy people, Azhelle Wade here and welcome back to another episode of the toy coach podcast, making it in the toy industry. This is a weekly podcast brought to you by thetoycoach.com. My guest today is coming back for his second time on the podcast. His name is Joe Slack. Joe is a board game designer, publisher, instructor and author. Joe has published five games and has one upcoming expansion and has raised 145 thousand Canadian dollars on two successful Kickstarter campaigns. So because of that, Joe offered to come on the show today and talk about Kickstarter.
[00:01:27] Now, if you have been following me for a long time, you know, that when this podcast first started, we did quite a bit of episodes on Kickstarter, like a lot. And Joe was one of the incredible people who had some success and some failures to share on Kickstarter. And he's coming back to share more of his journey and experience using that platform to launch product. I think it's going to be super valuable because we always need updated information on Kickstarter. Like how do we use it? How do we use it in 2021? 2022? What's changed? So without further ado, Joe, welcome to the show.
[00:02:01] Joe Slack: Hey, Azhelle thanks so much having me on.
[00:02:03] Azhelle Wade: So you reached out to me and you were like, Hey, I actually did something new with my game Relics of Rajavihara and you raised 28% more than your original Kickstarter. So just in case people haven't seen the previous episode or listen to the previous episode where you were on this podcast, could you give us a quick recap on Relics of Rajavihara, what that game is? Who it's for? Why you went to Kickstarter? Let's just get all the details.
[00:02:31] Joe Slack: For sure yeah. So Relics of Rajavihara is a puzzle solo game. It's kind of reminiscent of a lot of old school puzzle games. You may have played on the NES or other systems, like Legend of Zelda, Fire and Ice, adventures of logo, that type of thing, where you're pushing around blocks and trying to put them into place to kind of solve the puzzle and move on to the next one. So I kind of took that idea and wanted to make it into a tabletop experience where you're physically pushing around the blocks and make it a more tactile experience.
[00:03:00] And you move on from one level to the next, you can beat the first 10 levels and you open a new box and you get a whole brand new set of challenge. You have a nemesis you're facing, you have to drop a block on him at the end of every floor. And then once you've beaten all the 50 levels, then you open up kind of a mystery pack and you open up all these different new challenges and an unlimited kind of replayable version of the game that you can, you know, play over and over again.
[00:03:23] Azhelle Wade: And I remember when you came on the episode on the podcast before we talked about how this was a big deal, because it was a good solo game that you can play by yourself. And it was in perfect timing with the pandemic. And for anybody listening, if you wanna know more about like Joe's first journey with Relics of Rajavihara listen to episode number 28. It's thetoycoach.com/28 because we're not gonna rehash all that because you actually went and launched an expansion product. Tell us what happened, so how much success did you have with Relics of Rajavihara?
[00:03:54] Joe Slack: So it did really well. I sold a little over 1500 backers. It brought in a little over $60,000 in Canadian. And then there's the additional sales from retailers and kinda late pledges that come in your pledge manager and that kind of thing. Overall I felt it was pretty successful. I did a print run of 2,500 copies and sold most of them and had some leftover that would, you know, good for the expansion that I was working on, that type of thing. So with this, it's a type of game where there's a lot of different levels and a lot of different challenges. So I came up with 30 new levels and each one of them introduces a brand new thing. In the first version of the game in order to get up from one block to the next you could just jump up kind of thing.
[00:04:33] But if it was too high up, you couldn't do anything about that. And any blocks on the bottom floor, you couldn't do anything. They were kind of stuck there. But now I introduce things like ramps that will allow you to push them up and do different things, snakes and some other interesting challenges as well. So I built on the success of what was already there. And what people were really interested in and just adding new challenges. And I was able to actually bring in quite a few of the original backers to the campaign, plus a lot of new people who hadn't discovered it previously.
[00:05:01] Azhelle Wade: What drove your highest number of backers with your first campaign for Relics of Rajavihara?
[00:05:07] Joe Slack: The Kickstarter campaign itself, that brought in most of them. I brought in about an extra 10%, I would say, through the pledge manager afterwards and about similar numbers with the retail pledges as well. So yeah, most of it came through the Kickstarter campaign. People backing the base game were the deluxe version that had some extra levels as well.
[00:05:24] Azhelle Wade: Where did you find the people for the Kickstarter campaign to back it?
[00:05:28] Joe Slack: So what I did was, I'm trying to be very active in the communities and not just like, you know, pushing my game, like saying, oh, play my game, play my game. But you know, I have enjoyed other solo games over the last few years. And so there's a number of different Facebook groups, one in particular has, I think it's over 35,000 people now who plays solo games. It's kind of funny. It's this notion of all these tons and tons of people playing games all on their own. And they come there and they talk about it. And they, you know, they talk about their experiences.
[00:05:53] They ask questions about, oh, what new games are you playing? Or here's a new game I got and people ask questions, and then you wind up, you know, spending way more money than you intended to because you find all these other really cool games. But, you know, I was already in that community, engaging with them, trying to discover new games and sharing my experiences. And then at some point I said, you know, I'm working on a solo game too and one thing I was struggling with was how to theme it exactly. So I put a poll out there. I said, you know, I've been doing some brainstorming.
[00:06:20] I talked with another publisher who had some ideas as well. And I said, here's some images of it. Do you think this fits better with kind of an Indiana Jones kind of adventure theme or more kind of like a pixelated NES kind of style, or I think I had one other option there. Yeah. And it was a resounding vote for, for the adventure kind of a mode. So that kind of got kicked off. And then, you know, that led to people asking, you know, more questions, but tell me a little bit more about your game and that kind of thing.
[00:06:45] And then, you know, over time I could share a little bit of the art with, talk about my up upcoming Kickstarter campaign. And I had people interested from that. And from other groups that I was involved in, like the board game design lab, where I have a lot of game designers and I was very active there giving advice and helping other new game designers. Yeah. So through those things and building my email list, just getting people to sign up to the list and people who had, you know, played it at at different events in person as well.
[00:07:09] Azhelle Wade: So I'd love to talk a little bit about that Facebook aspect where you're engaging in Facebook groups and you're getting to know community like people in the community before pushing your product before even talking about your product. I feel like this is something a lot of people struggle with because they do, even in my own community, people wanna come in and they wanna share their product. Like that's all they wanna do, but that doesn't have as much power if you're not connecting with people first, right on a personal level.
[00:07:36] And you're not appreciating their work and you're not letting them get to know you that that's why it doesn't work. But how do you make that switch in your. To say it's worth my time to really invest in this community instead of just trying to like randomly post my game and all the Facebook groups I can before I get booted out, like, how did you make that mental switch to say, you know what? I really wanna push my game, but it's actually more important for me to like, become a valuable member of this community first.
[00:08:06] Joe Slack: Well, I think it's important to be just natural and honest. Yeah. I mean, I was already into solo games, you know, playing more and more of them. And I wanted to hear about other ones out there and ones that people experience. So I would ask questions and, you know, as a game designer, I'm just curious about games that people would like to play. So I would post a question like, what movie would you like seen turn into a solo game? And I got a lot of, you know, great replies on that. And there was like hundreds and hundreds comments on that.
[00:08:31] So kind of naturally engaging and just being curious not just being the type of person that post their game and says, Hey, this is coming to Kickstarter or, yeah do you like image A or B? And then like start like spamming about both the game. I think you have to naturally want to be there. And if, if you're into those types of games or into those types of toys or whatever, you're making you naturally just want to talk about it and talk about your experience. Share and help others that are maybe creating those.
[00:08:56] Or share your experience with things that you've experienced and ask questions and just become engaged. And then it just becomes more natural. You're not somebody coming into this group just to sell your thing. Like you, you're actually part of this community. And then they're much more accepting to say, Hey, I know this person's been in here for a while. They're talking about this kind of stuff here. You can tell they're very engaged and active in this and it just makes it that much easier.
[00:09:16] Azhelle Wade: And when, when you do make that switch over to selling or to pitching, or just saying, Hey guys, I'm launching a Kickstarter. What was that like for you? Were you uncomfortable? How did people receive it? How'd you feel?
[00:09:28] Joe Slack: It felt pretty natural cuz I'd been there for a while and it was, it, it was, you know, there's always that little bit of nerves saying like, okay, I'm gonna post something. That's a little outside of, you know, the, the norm I, I hope it's received well. Right. But it, it was received very well. People, people were interested, you know, it's, it's not a game for everybody just like any game, any way, any product, it's not for everybody. But the people that were interested, you know, had their thoughts on it and were able to share their comments and that type of thing.
[00:09:52] And even after that, I would post about it sporadically, but that wasn't the only thing I was posting about. I was, you know, posting pictures of other games that I was playing, showing my experiences, asking those questions. Like I was saying about, you know, what movie you'd like? Would you like seen turn into a game? That type of thing. Yeah. So kind of going back and forth and doing all those things and not just focusing on like, this is my game now. And also within my post, even when I was talking about my game, like sharing something about the art or the story or that kind of thing.
[00:10:19] I wouldn't just put something up right in the post and say, if you're interested, like, you know, sign up here for the email or that kind of thing. Right. I would let people naturally come to me. I posted something and then somebody in the comment says, oh, this looks really cool. How can I find out more? Oh, well there's a link here. If you're interested, they've asked you. Yeah. Which is a lot more powerful than you just say here, go look at this thing.
[00:10:38] Azhelle Wade: So true. So true. That's great tips. So then so you launched that cake started, you said you had, did you say a 1200 or 1500 backers?
[00:10:45] Joe Slack: I think it was around 1500 in the end, it might have been, I think it's actually maybe slightly lower than that, but then there's, you know, all the, the retail orders and the late orders and everything that came along afterwards.
[00:10:55] Azhelle Wade: And what was the dollar amount of that first Kickstarter? The first version of Relics?
[00:11:00] Joe Slack: I believe it was around $63,000 Canadian.
[00:11:02] Azhelle Wade: Yes. Nice. And then your expansion, tell us about that. Like what, so people were expressing interest, I'm guessing in these communities you were part of maybe in your email list and then you're like, okay, I'm gonna make this expansion came with all these new game mechanics. So how did you start planning this expansion Kickstarter?
[00:11:20] Joe Slack: Yeah, so it it's a type of game that I just really loved creating. So it was natural for me to keep wanting to create more and more levels. Yeah. So even while the first campaign was going, I was making these new levels, you know, whether or not, they would actually wind up being a product or not. I, you know, enjoyed the experience of, of doing that. And it's just makes you better as a game designer, as a product creator to just do and create. But I was hopeful that people would be interested and as people were getting their games and I was getting positive comments on like board game geek, and backers were saying they got their game.
[00:11:47] They said, you know, the, the components are really beautiful. I really love the game play. I'm stuck on this particular level, that kind of thing. That's fine. There was just kind of engagement and interest in it. I knew that it would have a strong chance of doing well. Wow. And also, also knowing that with a Kickstarter you're never gonna find everybody who would be your audience the first time around. So it allowed me the opportunity to say, okay, for those who have backed the original game, here's some more content. Here's a bunch of new levels. Here's the twists and, and turns that I'm taking on this. But if you miss the first campaign, here's your opportunity to get in now.
[00:12:19] And you know, if, if you really want, if you wanna go all in, you can get both. You can get the original base game, plus the expansion, add a little bit of a discount and, you know, with shipping and everything, being able to put everything in one package makes it a little easier. And I actually had a lot of success there. I had a, a really, really large number of people come by both the expansion and the base game. So there were newcomers and then a fairly equal number of people coming back for the expansion. And it was much higher the numbers than you expect.
[00:12:46] Because you hear some people say, you know, 20 to 30% of your original backers or original buyers made by the expansion. And I was getting much, much closer to like almost 50% with that. So I could tell that it would do well. And also I tried to time it in a way that people had just received the game and had been playing it for just, you know, a number of weeks or a couple of months so that it would still be fresh in their mind rather than launch a campaign or for the expansion, you know, a couple years later when somebody in the meantime gotten 10, 20 new games that they're excited about. Yeah. Cause it is really the cult of the new.
[00:13:18] Azhelle Wade: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you were, you shifted out, I guess, all of your goods from the first Kickstarter campaign, and you'd already been planning this expansion.
[00:13:27] Joe Slack: Exactly. So I think it's always a good idea to, to do that. Like people are getting interested in your game and to know that something new is coming.
[00:13:33] Azhelle Wade: I remember your first video from your first Kickstarter campaign looked very legit, like a, like a high end 3d rendered TV, commercial. So had you already done all that pre prep work or did you not do as like, as much of an investment in like the video, the Kickstarter video, and maybe the graphics and, and the email campaign, or did you do all of that work front before even shipping your first game?
[00:13:56] Joe Slack: Yeah, I was working on all that throughout the first campaign because, you know, when you got the game all done and you got everything off to your manufacturer, right. At some point you're kind of just waiting for like the go ahead, right. Waiting for, you know, proofs waiting for it to ship and that kind of thing. So you have a lot of time so you can jump back to other projects and I I've gotta give a big shout to Kagan productions. They did the video for Relics of Rajavihara and they also did the video for Montalo's Revenge and they knocked it outta the park with the second one as well.
[00:14:21] So I'll definitely share the link with you so you can see that. But with this with the second one, luckily they had a lot of the assets already. They could make use of a lot of the 3d renderings they already put together and that type of thing. Yeah. And just add in the new components and also for the art and that type of thing. My artist Tristan Rossen, who does a fantastic job as well. He had a lot of the, the work already done. He just had to make some new icons. And luckily I work with him so that he can provide kind of the, the template and everything.
[00:14:46] And I can set up the, the levels and the cards and that, which saves him some time and saves me a little bit of money. And that kind of thing as well. So if you're able to do tho some of those little things, you can save yourself little time as well. But yeah, I was working on this kind of at the tail end of the previous campaign while everything was just kind of being shipped out in that kind of thing, getting the game, play tested, making sure it was ready. Yeah. Getting the Kickstarter ready. So it would be ready to. After everybody had received their first game.
[00:15:09] Azhelle Wade: That's very smart. And, and so this time, the first time, I think you did most of it on your own aside from, you know, hiring help for the video, maybe graphics, but now you hired a pledge manager. So what is a pledge manager?
[00:15:21] Joe Slack: What it essentially is, is a system for after your campaign is done, in order to collect things like taxes and shipping and allow late backers to join your campaign up to a certain point until you kind of cut that off. So there are a number of different product out there. There's backer kit, crowd. And game found was the one that I wound up using based on the, the cost and the customer service experience and everything. And what it essentially does is you upload your list of all your backers and put them in the system.
[00:15:54] And then you can message them to say, okay, it's up here in game found. It's time to finish your pledge because as great as Kickstarter is, it does have some limitations. One of those things being, you can't, you know, continue to sell your game or complete pledges and that type of thing after the campaign's done. And you also are kind of limited with shipping and that kind of thing. And taxes, you can't really collect taxes and that kind of thing. So a lot of backer or a lot of creators rather will use a pledge manager afterwards.
[00:16:22] Azhelle Wade: Oh. So just managers a tool. It's not, I thought it was a, a role you were hiring for.
[00:16:26] Joe Slack: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So it's, it's a tool use online, so it just allows the, the backers to come back. Put in their shipping address, pay for that shipping cost, pay for that, or any other taxes, that type of thing. And for example, somebody backed a dollar or backed at a low print and play pledge level or something like that. It gives 'em the opportunity if they were kind of on the fence about it, right. Say, okay, you have until kind of this date to still update your pledge.
[00:16:51] And you know, if you wanna upgrade it you can still do that. You can make changes to your pledge. If you wanna order an extra copy for somebody else, that type of thing. So it just gives more opportunities. And then once that pledge manager sure. Closed down, then you have all the information, you can send that out to your shipping fulfillment partners and get everything settled so they can get their games.
[00:17:09] Azhelle Wade: So you increase your sales 10 to 20% from using a pledge manager after your campaigns?
[00:17:15] Joe Slack: Yeah. In the first one, I would say it was about 10%, the second one, maybe slightly higher than that. Okay. Yeah, it definitely. That is partially from people upgrading their pledges and then partially from new pledges coming in as well.
[00:17:27] Azhelle Wade: I'm curious, how is a pledge manager different from let's say if you had just set up a website for Relics of Rajavihara where people could just order the product. How is the pledge manager tool different than that?
[00:17:39] Joe Slack: It just incorporates the the backers from your previous campaign, a little easier. Because I guess I could do something like that through my website and just say, okay, everybody, you still need to pay your, your taxes and everything, but it, it sets it up so much easier. You can just put in your products give people the opportunity to, to upgrade right there. It has the taxes set up by region.
[00:17:58] So I don't have to worry about, you know, people getting charged unfairly or anything like that. Yeah. And then new orders as well. So it just. It incorporates everything there and also provides you with a way to very easily import that list and export it once you're done. So you can pan that off to your fulfillment partner and say, okay, here's all the backers, their addresses here's what they ordered. And they can take it from there much easier.
[00:18:18] Azhelle Wade: Yeah. Okay. So yeah, let's talk a little bit about your fulfillment. Cause I don't think we covered that in the first time in the first visit to this podcast. What I've heard a lot from people that run Kickstarters is that most people don't account enough money for shipping. And then they end up just not making any money at all on their Kickstarter because they end up having to ship. And I actually didn't know what you mentioned that you're not able to collect taxes through Kickstarter. So I, I would love to hear just how you chose your shipping partner and how you estimated for taxes and shipping when you were doing your launch, that you could come out profitable.
[00:18:51] Joe Slack: Absolutely. Yeah. And that's, those are all challenges that we face and, hit the nail in head right there with that, with that saying the shipping is what often will sink a creator because some people don't realize this, but shipping is usually almost, always more expensive than the actual manufacturing. And there's two aspects of shipping, you really have to take into account. There's the freight shipping, and then there's the fulfillment cost. So the freight shipping is really getting your game from point A to point B. So a lot of people don't really think about this, but you know, your game is often made in China or some other country and it's made there, so they've manufactured it, but then you've gotta get it to the port.
[00:19:23] And then from that port to your, to a port somewhere else, so say you're shipping it to the USA. So it's gonna go to a port, maybe in Los Angeles or Florida or New York. And from there, it's got to be unloaded and then it's gotta be sent to wherever your fulfillment partner is located. And then from there they will handle the fulfillment. So there's a lot of different stops along the way. So you have to cover what the costs are at all those stages. And generally you don't charge your backers for those freight costs. You kind of build that in, like, if you have a retail model where you're getting your game made, getting it into distribution, getting into retail stores, you'll create what's called the landing cost.
[00:19:57] So it might be, say $9 to manufacture your game and say the freight shipping to get it to your distribution partner is $1 per game. So your land of cost will be $10. And then usually mark that up about five or six times to 50 or $60 for the actual cost of the game, cuz the distributor only buys it at 40% and you know, there's really thin margins there all the way along. But the other thing right now is freight shipping has gone absolutely crazy as I'm sure you've experienced. And some people, you know, where it used to be say $5,000 for a contain. Now it's, you know, 30, $35,000 for container and that that's fluctuating week to week. So when you suddenly go from a landed cost of $10 to a landed cost of 14, 15, $16, that makes a huge, huge difference.
[00:20:39] But then there's the, the actual shipping and like kind of the fulfillment side of that. So you will wanna sign on with a fulfillment partner who's gonna get your game out to the backers from there. If you have a very, very small campaign, you might be able to do that yourself, you know, in, you know, in your living room, that kind of thing. Generally, if you have over 500, I would definitely definitely say, go with a fulfillment partner. If you have a small box game, like a wallet size game or something, you only have a few hundred, you might want to consider doing that yourself, but right, you know, you're spending a lot of time on that.
[00:21:06] So you might save a few bucks, but generally the fulfillment companies do get a better rate. So whatever extra they're charging you, it's gonna kind of come out in the wash anyways. And it's gonna be a lot more time on your end. But yeah, if you have any kind of sizable campaign, you wanna work with a fulfillment partner and you can either do it with one fulfillment partner who's going to fulfill everything around the world, which is kind of an easier approach, cuz you know, you got one person .So what I did was I went with multiple fulfillment partners. I had D six was handling north America and I had spiral galaxy handling UK Europe, and kind of the rest of the world.
[00:21:39] And I worked with VFI for Asia and then Ather works for Australia. So that was for my first campaign. I actually had four partners because it just, just made more sense to split up the shipments that way I got better rates and it would kind of get it faster to everybody doing it that that way. But, you know, it's, it's really up to what you're comfortable with. And if you just wanna work with one company, but you might wind up paying higher rates at at least for certain parts of the world.
[00:22:03] Azhelle Wade: And then your customers are waiting longer to get your product.
[00:22:06] Joe Slack: Exactly.
[00:22:07] Azhelle Wade: I would love to hear, how did you adjust to the changing cost of shipping and the increase of material prices? Did like the community accept higher retail price points, or did you accept lower margins?
[00:22:24] Joe Slack: Well, on my first campaign, I basically took the accepting lower margins route. By that point, I had pretty good estimates for freight shipping and they didn't go up drastically from, from that time. So I had gotten quotes just before the campaign. So I did kind of roll a little bit of the cost of shipping in, so it would be a little bit more palatable, but, you know, overall, it, it would've been the same price. So between that, and taxes and things like that. I had to swallow some of the, those extra costs.
[00:22:50] Kind of those unknowns or, you know, those kind of surprises for first time creators. That kind of come along. So between that and the second campaign though, I, I did learn a lot. So for the second campaign I looked into a lot of different shipping models and that type of thing. There's one company sent from China who I'm gonna be working with quite a bit on this campaign. And they're going to be sending a lot of the packages by air.
[00:23:12] So I can avoid the freight costs. So in some cases the prices were fairly similar to what it would've been for just the fulfillment from some other companies. And I get to avoid having to pay for the freight and instead of waiting, you know, months and getting stuck in ports, which can happen for months and months at a time. Once those games get to the, the fulfillment company and they get them all packaged up and labeled, they're gonna go out within two weeks instead.
[00:23:36] Azhelle Wade: I remember years ago, like telling when we would like rush a product out for product. If somebody said, oh my gosh, it's so late. We're gonna have to ship it by air. It was like, you know, like you never don't ever do that. And now the prices are so almost comparable if your product is small enough. Right. Is it's just mind blowing cuz it used to just be such a faux PA like, oh, you're shipping by air.
[00:23:59] So we're not making any margin. Cool. But now it it's just a totally different world. Have you noticed for your second launch that people are accepting of higher prices or did you have to do a little bit of what they're calling what like, skimpflation, you know, try to reduce some of the components so that you can maintain the price point that your customers want and a realistic margin so you can stay in business.
[00:24:21] Joe Slack: So I didn't want to have to skimp on anything. I mean, one of the big factors for Relics of Rajavihara is the quality of the components. Like, so, so many people said, you know, it's a beautiful game, beautifully designed, great insert and everything else. And I didn't wanna skimp on that. And also, you know, the campaign included the original base game, and I wanted people to have the exact same experience with it. So when I went to get quotes for the reprint of the game, it was about 40% higher which was considerably higher. So I did have to increase my prices on the second campaign for the base game, but I only did by about 20%. That's kind of how much I could afford to do. And I mean, the good thing with Kickstarter is you don't have to make as big a margin.
[00:24:59] Azhelle Wade: What do you do with retailers? If you're selling the same product now to retail, you can't like, you know, retailers don't wanna see the same product online for cheaper, because then they're like, well, why am I carrying this in my store? So what do you do for that?
[00:25:12] Joe Slack: Yeah. So what most creators do and what I did was any retailers that wanted to back the campaign could get it at 50% of the cost, which is what they would normally pay from a distributor, that type of thing. So they were able to get it at 50% of that cost. After they get all their games and all the backers get their games, I'll have to finalize what the MSRP is. I'm hoping it's not gonna change too drastically from where it was kind of on the campaign, but you know, anybody getting it retail will at the very least have to wait a little bit longer.
[00:25:38] So, you know, you always want to fulfill to your backers first because you get a lot of complaints from backers who see the game in store. And they're like, oh I could have just waited and bought it now and not have to pay for shipping. And maybe even get it cheaper because the store controls the prices, right. If they wanna sell it for less, they can. So you can post it on there and you can have a retail pledge level and they can back it at however.
[00:25:58] The easiest way to do that is, is for them to just kind of put down a deposit. And then after the campaign, you follow up with them and ask, Hey, how many copies of the base game? How many copies of the expansion, what's your address? I'll give you a shipping quote and that kind of thing. And then you send them an invoice and they'll, you know, pay that up front. And then when all the other games are getting delivered, they will get theirs as well at that time for that region.
[00:26:17] Azhelle Wade: If it's a pledge on Kickstarter, it's technically available to everyone. So what do you do to a retail pledge to make sure only retailers are buying it?
[00:26:24] Joe Slack: Yeah. So you have to verify that it is actually a retailer. I mean, it, it would be kind of unfair for an individual backer to come and, and buy it. Yeah. But also depending on how you want to do it, you can price it at a higher level than the base game. So no backers are gonna look at that and say, oh, I'm gonna get in on that. And maybe I can get away with, you know, this, they they're gonna have to pay a higher price. Right. Just for that kind of deposit. So it might be like $99 for deposit on this. And then you're gonna be buying games in quantities of, of six or something like that.
[00:26:51] So somebody wants to buy six if they wanna buy 48, you know, they have that, that choice. So it's just really a deposit. And then when you follow up afterwards, you say, okay, I need. How many games you want of each type, what's your address? What's your proof of ownership? So, you know, getting them to share their, you know, business number or, you know, website for their store, that kind of thing, just to verify.
[00:27:12] Azhelle Wade: Okay, so wrap up, I wanna ask you some closing questions. What is the best piece of advice you received when you first started your whole Kickstarter journey?
[00:27:23] Joe Slack: Build an audience. I think without a doubt that is so crucial because, you know, you see so many games that get launched and they may look like a decent game and that kind of thing, but they haven't really done their homework to know really what's needed on a Kickstarter or to build up their audience. You're competing with hundreds and hundreds of other games that have done their homework. That have built up their audience have gone to conventions, built up their email list, that kind of thing.
[00:27:44] So knowing that you can go in there successfully with a reasonable funding goal fund your game quickly typically within 24 to 48 hours. Cause that just gives you more momentum and Kickstarters more likely to, you know, put, push your game a little bit more through the algorithms, cuz you know, this is already funded.
[00:28:00] People like to back a winner, that kind of thing. So really going in with, you know, more than just your friends and family, but with, you know, hundreds of people who are really excited about your game and want to back it on, on day, one, want to be part of it. And be part of that community and help push your game past that funding goal. So you can continue to raise more and get more games, maybe throw some stretch goals in and add more stuff to the game and make it even better.
[00:28:22] Azhelle Wade: What would you say to people who think, oh, Kickstarter is dead?
[00:28:26] Joe Slack: Well, I'd say they they're right. That it's definitely not the same. When a Kickstarter first came out, it was more about bringing your idea out. So people could come out, make a video, just them in front of a cam quarter. I have this idea to make this thing and people would be like, yeah, I wanna support this person, you know, it sounds like their idea is really cool. You can't do that nowadays. You have to have a fully fledged product at least close to finished. If you've got a game, for example, you have to have all the art, all the mechanics, everything kind of set up because you wanna be able to get into production fairly soon afterwards.
[00:28:53] You wanna show people that this is, you know, a, a finished game, not just an idea that they're backing and, and you actually have it almost done. So it is gonna actually happen. So it has changed that way along with a lot of bigger publishers and a lot of bigger companies using the platform. It's become a little bit more of a pre-order system. Some people don't like to say, you know, Kickstarter is not a store, it's not a pre-order system. It is about the community and that kind of thing. But most things that are coming out now are fairly far along. There's not really much room to change or improve it.
[00:29:21] Azhelle Wade: What's even the point of doing a Kickstarter if it's not like about like, I just have an idea and if you're interested in me developing it, then, you know, help me do that by funding me. What is the benefit of not just having your own website and doing a pre sale?
[00:29:35] Joe Slack: Yeah, I think the big part is the community. So if you have something out there that people might already be interested in, it will be introduced to their community. I mean, obviously, like I said, you need to bring in your own audience, but once you get it funded or kind of get past that, those first couple hurdles and other people start to see your game, ah, see, then they can become interested in there too.
[00:29:54] Because you know, you have millions of people, you know, going on Kickstarter and looking for the latest thing and that kind of thing. And particularly. Board games is the, the biggest category by far on there. So you've got people who are an active audience who are used to the Kickstarter model. They know, you know, they're gonna put their money in now and get their game later and they're looking for a great game. So, you know, if you got that built in audience.
[00:30:14] Azhelle Wade: Gotcha. Okay. And my final question for you, Joe Slack, what game blew your mind as a kid?
[00:30:22] Joe Slack: I think it would probably have to be the original fireball island. That just looked so cool. So I'll tell you about it. So it's a game where you're an adventure on an island and you're gonna go capture treasures on, on the island and try to get off the island first to survive. But the cool thing about this is, there's this giant built up board and it's got this giant head at the top that has fireballs in it. So depending on where you land and what you're doing, you'll be able to launch fireballs at your opponents. So they come rolling down and knock out bridges and knock out the players and that kind of thing. And it was just so cool to see it. I never owned it as a kid, but I had friends that had it.
[00:30:59] Azhelle Wade: You never owned it?
[00:31:00] Joe Slack: No, I never owned it. But a friend had it and I remember going to his place and playing it and thinking it was so awesome. And restoration games has actually restored the game and made it more modern. So it's a little less roll and move. And just, this is what happens to you. You have more choice in, you know, using cards to move around and collect different treasures and do different strategies. And I actually backed that Kickstarter campaign. I went all in on that, got all the expansion there, cause it's such a nostalgia. And that's another thing that can really sell games is nostalgia. You know, you bring out a game that's similar to, or that's a, a restore of an existing game. And people are just like, yeah, I remember that from my childhood and this looks even cool.
[00:31:32] Azhelle Wade: Oh, I looked it up. We're gonna add this link in the show notes for anybody that wants to check out the game that blew his mind as a kid. This is pretty cool. It does look like a lot of fun. Well, thank you so much for being here today. You shared great tips and advice tools. We're gonna put the links in the show notes. If you have any links to share that, maybe something you mentioned that you wanna send me, please do. We will add in, in these links as well. As always, thank you so much for being here today with me, Joe. Thank you for coming on the show.
[00:32:01] Joe Slack: Azhelle thank you so much for having me on. It was a blast.
[00:32:03] Azhelle Wade: Everyone thank you so much for listening to the podcast today. If you wanna learn more about Joe, you can check Joe out on Instagram at JSlack22. Where can they learn more about Relics of Rajavihara? The expansion pack? Where can people find that?
[00:32:18] Joe Slack: Yeah. Check out crazylikeabox.com, that's my website where I have all my games that I'm working on or ones that I've already got published.
[00:32:25] Azhelle Wade: Thank you so much for being here today, Joe. Have a great day.
[00:32:28] Joe Slack: Thanks. You too.
[00:32:29] Azhelle Wade: Well, there you have it toy people my interview with Joe Slack. If you are planning to launch a Kickstarter, I want you to just listen to this episode all over again, because there were a lot of details on this episode as to how to have a successful Kickstarter. The number one lesson that Joe even remembers to this day is that you should build an audience. So if you are thinking of launching your toy or game on Kickstarter and you have not yet started collecting email addresses, phone numbers for SMS text, or just building any kind of community around your game. I want you to start doing that today.
[00:33:07] Now, if you love this podcast and you haven't yet left a review, what are you waiting for? I love seeing the reviews pop up on my phone. I get a notification every time there's a new review and it puts a huge smile on my face and keeps me coming back week after week. As always, thank you so much for being here with me today. I know there are a ton of podcasts out there, so it truly means the world to me that you keep tuning into this one. Until next week. I'll see you later toy people.
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