#248: Breaking Through Barriers in Children’s Book Publishing with Charles George Esperanza: Extended Cut
Ever wonder how a kid from the South Bronx grew up to be a superstar children's book author and illustrator? 🚀
In this episode of Making It in The Toy Industry, join host Azhelle Wade as she chats with Charles George Esperanza, the creative mind behind Boogie Boogie Y’all! 🎨📚 From dreaming of drawing comics to becoming a HarperCollins author, Charles shares his journey full of ups, downs, and plenty of surprises
He shares how he turned "no" into motivation, why his vibrant oil-painted illustrations are changing how we see graffiti and his creative tricks for making big waves in publishing. Tune in to hear his inspiring story and grab some tips on making your own creative dreams come true!
Listen For These Important Moments
[02:53] - Introduction to Today's Guest: Charles George Esperanza
[03:50] - 'Boogie Boogie Y'all' Audio Version
[07:25] - Interview with Charles George Esperanza Begins
[09:18] - Charles's Journey and Inspirations
[17:43] - Challenges and Breakthroughs in Publishing
[30:59] - Struggles and Breakthroughs in the Art World
[31:49] - Transition to Education
[35:10] - Inspiration Behind Boogie Boogie Y'all
[37:47] - Creating and Promoting Boogie Boogie Y'all
[46:21] - Future Projects and Reflections
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This episode is brought to you by www.thetoycoach.com
Want to see more of Charles' amazing work? 🎨✨ Follow him on Instagram for updates, behind-the-scenes looks, and all the creative vibes!
Here are the books C.G. talked about in this episode. Check them out!
Check out his newest works and see the magic for yourself! Don’t miss out on these vibrant and inspiring stories. ✨🔥 -
[00:00:00] Azhelle Wade: You are listening to Making It In The Toy Industry, episode number 248.
[00:00:10] Welcome to Making It In The Toy Industry, a podcast for inventors, entrepreneurs, and makers like you. And now your host, Azhelle Wade.
[00:00:22] Azhelle Wade: Hey there, toy people, Azhelle Wade here, and welcome back to another episode of Making It In The Toy Industry. This is your weekly podcast brought to you by TheToyCoach.com.
[00:00:33] First off, I want to take a moment to wish you and your loved ones a Merry Christmas, a Happy Hanukkah, Happy Kwanzaa, or simply a joyful holiday season, no matter what you celebrate. December is a great time for connection and reflection, celebration, and I hope you're finding little magic in it all, losing yourself in a Hallmark movie or two.
[00:00:54] Now, as we wrap up 2024. I'm doing something a bit special and different for this podcast. For the next few weeks, I'll be sharing extended versions of past podcast episodes that have never been released to the public before. I'm also preparing something exciting for the new year. This podcast is getting a fresh new format.
[00:01:14] Yep. Starting January, 2025. I'm so excited for you to experience it. The reason behind this new format and the goal of it is for you to be able to retain and take action on the things you learn in this podcast more actively. So stay tuned, stay subscribed, and get ready to learn with even more clarity and focus as we go into the New Year if you're serious about getting your toy Idea license.
[00:01:41] Now, if you've been doing some holiday shopping and you've been seeing products that you don't think are up to snuff and you've got an idea that you think needs to be in stores and you're serious about getting that idea licensed or on to store shelves yourself, let's make it happen together.
[00:01:57] During a one on one call. We will focus entirely on your specific idea and toy goals. I'll help you develop a clear plan of action, connect you with the right decision makers, whether that be factories, retailers, companies, and give you key tools to help you move that idea forward to the next step. This is your chance to get some expert guidance and coaching tailored to your goals and your needs.
[00:02:23] If you're lucky, there are still some spots left this year. So visit thetoycoach.com/call to book your session. And we can take a big step forward into getting that idea made into a real product. Start 2025 with the momentum you need to succeed in this industry. Thank you so much for spending your holiday season with me.
[00:02:46] So without further ado, let's dive into today's extended episode.
[00:02:54] Hey there, toy people. I am popping in before today's episode begins to give you a quick overview of our guest today. Today's conversation was beautiful and fluid and natural, but I didn't want you diving into it without context. Charles George Esperanza is a children's book author and illustrator who joins me on the show today to share how a poor kid from the South Bronx found a mentor and the structure he needed when he studied illustration at the Fashion Institute of Technology, a path which eventually led him to where he is today, a published author with books released by Skype Pony Press and HarperCollins.
[00:03:37] Charles shares insights into his journey into children's publishing and offers advice for aspiring book illustrators and writers out there. So you don't want to miss a second of this. So before we kick off this interview, I actually have a world premiere to share with you.
[00:03:57] This is the audio version of Charles's latest book, 'Boogie Boogie Y'all' with Harper Collins. The book for the song you are about to hear is already available, recorded and mixed by Robert George, produced by Apex, the Original and Matthias Teiner. This is' Boogie Boogie Y'all' The Banger Remix by CG Esperanza featuring Ian.
[00:07:25] Azhelle Wade: Hey there, toy people! Azhelle Wade here, and welcome back to another episode of the Toy Coach Podcast, Making It in the Toy Industry. This is a weekly podcast brought to you by thetoycoach.com. I've got a friend on the podcast today, and I should say a friend of my boyfriend, Christian, truly. He was his friend first, but he's my friend now.
[00:07:47] And I'm going to introduce you to Charles Esperanza. But first, let me start with his incredible bio. Okay, let's get into this bio. Born the second of six cool kids. The South Bronx is where he first opened his eyelids. A land shrouded in bright colored decay, the birthplace of graffiti and the hip hop DJ.
[00:08:08] He paints fantasy worlds of elephants and castles, too. Accompanying this wonder is some whimsical truth. Charles has a voice that is seldom heard, a fusion of jazz, distorted guitars, and chirping birds. Author and illustrator of 'Red, Yellow, Blue (and a Dash of White too!)', released by Sky Pony Press, and 'Boogie Boogie Y'all' with Harper Collins.
[00:08:29] Welcome to the show, Charles Esperanza.
[00:08:33] Charles George Esperanza: Thank you so much for that amazing, amazing intro, Azhelle. I am so happy to be here. I'm so happy to be here with all of you amazing toy people as well. And I always have fun talking to Azhelle, so this is going to be the same as always, I'm sure.
[00:08:49] Azhelle Wade: Yeah, I hope we dive into it.
[00:08:51] We get, we have the hard conversations we normally have when we're hanging out. So hopefully, hopefully it'll be good. So, toy people, you'll notice we have a different setup today because Charles appeared with this incredible layout and I was like, 'Oh, we're not going to split the screen and ruin this.' So I'm up in the corner here looking down.
[00:09:10] Oh, we're looking down at all the amazingness that's going on, but we'll still do the interview the same way, but we just got a different format today. Okay. So Charles, I want to start from the back cause who you are today is impressive, but let's start from who you were when you were first starting out your career.
[00:09:28] What did you want to be? And where did you think life was going to take you in that?
[00:09:33] Charles George Esperanza: So, you know, Ever since I can remember, I wanted to be, you know, a comic book artist, an artist of some sort. I used to make my own comic books and I would have my own stapler and me being able to staple my comic pages together was like the biggest breakthrough to me because now they actually kind of look like real comic books.
[00:09:55] So ever since then, I was like, I need to make books. This needs to be my thing. And I originally went to college wanting to be a Pixar animator, and then I realized that it was very tedious and boring work. And the real, the real work, the real creators were the picture book people, the people who are making the ideas, drawing and not having so many voices in their head. So I'm glad that, you know, as a picture , book illustrator, I get to just come up with my own stuff and only my editor can say no to me and she barely ever says no. So...
[00:10:32] Azhelle Wade: So I have to say, like when I see you doing what you're doing, it seems so, so very entrepreneurial. I mean, it seems from the outside perspective, like you chose the hardest path possible to be an artist. Is that a fair assumption? What would you say?
[00:10:48] Charles George Esperanza: Definitely if you were to tell me, 'Oh, you know, you're going to be born as a poor black boy in the South Bronx. And on top of that, you're going to want to be an artist for a living.'
[00:11:02] I would have said, 'Oh, You know, maybe I'll pass on all that.' But the art was so strong within me and the, and I'm a Taurus. So people say that means I'm stubborn. So, yeah. So I never listened to anyone's advice about getting a sanitation job with the city or ...
[00:11:25] Azhelle Wade: Wait. Who told you to do that?
[00:11:26] Charles George Esperanza: My beloved Aunt Lydia. I wanted to, I wanted to work in her funeral home, but she, you know, offered that advice instead. Yeah. So I was just very stubborn and I just, you know, I was so obsessed with anime and Dragon Ball Z and just drawing that I just kept pushing, pushing, pushing, and then I, I was able to see my amazing picture book illustrator at FIT, Eric Velasquez and the success that he had become, you know, being a, also growing up, poor black kid in New York City. He's from Harlem and I saw that he could do it. I saw his beautiful house and he's an amazing picture book illustrator. He just won the NAACP award for his book about Schomburg. So, you know, seeing him and knowing that he was able to do it, I've trusted myself and though I'm doing it a totally different way than he's doing it, you know, that's, it still showed me a path.
[00:12:25] Azhelle Wade: Yeah, you know, that representation of what's possible is so important. That led me to go to FIT also. So how integral was what you learned at school actually to what you're doing today?
[00:12:38] Charles George Esperanza: I mean, they definitely taught me everything there. I was afraid to paint when I first went in. I was just using markers and colored pencils and those kinds of things.
[00:12:48] And they forced me to paint and I didn't want to do it, but I'm so happy I did. And then they forced me to use oil paint, which my new book, 'Boogie Boogie Y'all' is done all in oil paints. Eric Velasquez taught me to work from reference and all these things that I would have never thought of doing if I didn't have the structure that FIT gave me.
[00:13:10] It's a little different now. I feel like when I was growing up, the internet wasn't as popping as it was, you know, 2004, 2005 when I was coming out of high school. I feel like right now kids probably could just jump on YouTube and get some awesome tutorials. They can find a whole community without college.
[00:13:30] But back when I was coming up, co FIT was, you know, I'm happy I went there and I have a community of friends that led to, uh, me meeting you. So .
[00:13:39] Azhelle Wade: Yeah, no, no. That, that's true. That's true. And, and the hard part with the online education is the focus, right? Like at least when you're in school there, it, it kind of puts you on a track.
[00:13:49] So when you start searching on YouTube, it's a bottomless pit. You could start researching how to oil paint and end up watching a cat video. Like it's just, you know, it's not, it's not, it's not a clear path. So, so when you saw Eric Velasquez and you saw what he was doing, do you remember the moment that it kind of clicked and your tourist mind went super stubborn, like, that's what I'm going to do.
[00:14:11] No other questions asked.
[00:14:13] Charles George Esperanza: Yeah. So, I mean, most of my life, I always felt like picture books were, you know, Dr. Seuss. Dr. Seuss is, you know, awesome when he's not racist and he made some really cool books that my first book ever was Green Eggs and Ham. And that was the first book I ever read. So, you know, you tell me picture books, I'm going to think of that kind of stuff.
[00:14:35] And, you know, as awesome as that was, that wasn't really something I saw myself doing, you know, as a career when I got older. But Eric Velasquez showed me this one book called The Rain Stomper and it was this little black girl and it was, she was supposed to go to a parade but it rained and she wouldn't let it rain on her parade so she went outside and just started stomping in puddles and the way he just painted this book I was just like, you know what?
[00:15:04] This looks like something that I could do like this is way more complex than people believe picture book illustration is and as I delve deeper and deeper into picture books I just realized how elitist and snobby the art is. Like this is some real classy, like complex stuff. And even now I feel like the competition is so cutthroat just being in picture book illustration because everybody's just so good.
[00:15:31] Azhelle Wade: Okay, I'm, I'm sorry. I'm realizing we're gonna have to go back a little bit because I'm so comfortable with you that I did not address any of your look today. And I feel like the people watching this video are gonna be like, what is going on here?
[00:15:46] So please, who are you wearing?
[00:15:49] Charles George Esperanza: So today I'm wearing this blue jacket that I bought for my first ever picture book read along back in 2005. And it kind of looks similar to the jacket that my character wears in my first ever book, 'Red, Yellow, Blue' except I'm wearing a blue version of it. Yeah.
[00:16:09] Azhelle Wade: That's awesome.
[00:16:10] Charles George Esperanza: Yeah, it's also reminiscent of Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, which is one of my favorite Beatles albums. And my headdress over here, this is from the Cameroon Grasslands created by the Bamaleke people. And they wore this headdress to any kind of ceremony that was very important. And I wear this to my reading events, which I consider very high in importance. So, yeah. And this over here is a painting of my cover.
[00:16:43] For the book 'Boogie Boogie Y'all'.
[00:16:45] Azhelle Wade: And this doll you've got sitting in between you all you both?
[00:16:48] Charles George Esperanza: And this is Radia she is named after the Basquiat painting radiant child and she is adorned in all Basquiat paintings as you can see here. Yeah, she has Basquiat's crown as well.
[00:17:07] Azhelle Wade: And Mattel released her?
[00:17:08] Charles George Esperanza: Yes, this is an official Mattel release.
[00:17:11] Azhelle Wade: Love it. Love it. Okay.
[00:17:13] Charles George Esperanza: That's my favorite.
[00:17:14] Azhelle Wade: Thank you. I'm sorry. I had to cut off your story a bit there, but I realized we didn't explain the visuals and we really needed to dive into the visuals of what's going on here. Okay.
[00:17:24] Charles George Esperanza: Well, I was just waiting.
[00:17:28] Azhelle Wade: So you go to school, you go to FIT, you had big dreams. You were told to be a garbage man, but you were like, no, I see some out people out here doing big things. I'm going to do big things too. I'm going to join this elitist society of picture book creators. That's what I'm going to do. So. What happened? How did you get your first big break? And if you could bring that book back up on the screen to create red, yellow, blue, how did you get that first big break?
[00:17:52] What led to that?
[00:17:53] Charles George Esperanza: So what led to this? I'm going to say luck is preparation meets opportunity. Like it's preparation meets opportunity, right? Yeah. I had been preparing to be a picture book illustrator since I graduated in 2010 from FIT. I was getting rejection after rejection. I didn't really know what, what I wanted my style to be.
[00:18:17] So, I just worked with Eric Velasquez in his studio. And just trying to take in as much as possible. And then one day I was on Facebook and an FIT mutual friend put up a post saying that they were looking for an illustrator for a Jackie Robinson book. So of course, I'm just like, I can definitely draw Jackie Robinson.
[00:18:40] I'm a black illustrator. They wanted a, particularly a black illustrator. So this is the one time I was hoping there wasn't that many black illustrators in the world. Cause I really just wanted that job to myself. And I applied for it. They wanted me to, you know, do an audition and everything. So I had to like, sketch it up, what I would do.
[00:19:03] Eventually, I got the job. Don't mean to go off topic a little bit, but randomly enough, I was actually interning with Spike Lee at the time. And when I was in his bathroom, in his studio in Fort Greene, yeah, I was in his bathroom when I, when I looked at my phone and I got the, you know, message that I had got the Jackie Robinson book.
[00:19:24] That's when I looked around his bathroom, and there was nothing but pictures of Jackie Robinson all over the bathroom.
[00:19:30] Azhelle Wade: Shut up.
[00:19:30] Charles George Esperanza: It was really, it was really freaking weird.
[00:19:33] Azhelle Wade: Shut up.
[00:19:34] Charles George Esperanza: I am being 100 percent serious.
[00:19:36] Azhelle Wade: Oh, I have chills. Oh, wow.
[00:19:39] Charles George Esperanza: Yeah, Spike Lee was the biggest Jackie Robinson fan. He wanted to do Jackie Robinson's movie, but they gave it to someone else, unfortunately.
[00:19:45] Azhelle Wade: Did you like go out and tell him?
[00:19:47] Charles George Esperanza: You know, I didn't.
[00:19:50] Azhelle Wade: Why? He would freaking love that.
[00:19:52] Charles George Esperanza: I think a little earlier that day, he had actually yelled at me because I forgot to turn off the air conditioning while they were recording. So he had yelled at me a little bit. So I was like, I'm going to keep this to myself.
[00:20:04] But if, if you're watching this Spike, you know, I love you. You're my favorite movie director of all time. And I want to come back to your studio sometime. So let me know. But yeah, yo. So I got the Jackie Robinson book. And to be honest with you, I didn't want to do Black History books because I feel like illustrators, black illustrators, you know, get pigeonholed as, you know, for these kinds of books.
[00:20:30] And some people are passionate about that. Like Eric Velasquez, there's a lot of, Kadir Nelson, there's a lot of black illustrators that are passionate about that kind of thing. And I'd rather they do it. Then me who I'm not, that's, I'm more, I like to do whimsical, fantastical stuff. You know, I can't, you know, like, look at me, I gotta be doing whimsical stuff.
[00:20:52] So I took it anyway, because I wanted to get my foot through the door and, you know, it actually was a great experience. The author actually ended up becoming a mentor to me, Tanya Grossinger. She had, was mentored by Jackie Robinson growing up. Wow. And so she wrote this book about being mentored by Jackie Robinson, and in turn she mentored me, you know, in the publishing industry.
[00:21:16] She was amazing. She taught me so much. She passed in 2016, but our book, Jackie and Me is still out there, so if you want to check that out, you can.
[00:21:25] Azhelle Wade: Were you guys very close?
[00:21:26] Charles George Esperanza: I'm happy that I did that. Yeah, we used to, you know, go drinking all the time. She was like, 80s.
[00:21:31] Azhelle Wade: Oh, I'm so sorry.
[00:21:32] Charles George Esperanza: She was in her 80s.
[00:21:34] Azhelle Wade: Oh, wow.
[00:21:35] Charles George Esperanza: And she lived on Christopher Street.
[00:21:37] Azhelle Wade: Wow.
[00:21:37] Charles George Esperanza: She lives on Christopher Street and we always just meet up on Jackie Robinson Day and they knew her at the bar so we would get free drinks. And we would just party it up and she could drink more than anyone
[00:21:50] Azhelle Wade: 80 year old woman? Oh lord.
[00:21:52] Charles George Esperanza: Yeah! She was very youthful and we had so much fun.
[00:21:56] Azhelle Wade: Okay, I want to back up because if anyone's listening that also wants to be an illustrator, a children's book illustrator, they heard you say you were preparing to be a picture book illustrator all throughout college. How were you preparing? How did you get an internship? Like, with Spike Lee, like, how did you prepare?
[00:22:16] Charles George Esperanza: So, basically, preparing is just making stories, making illustrations, and even if it turns out, you know, horrible and no one wants to publish it, keep doing it. I made maybe five different versions of this book, 'Red, Yellow, Blue', before it was published. I made a version in gouache, um, I illustrated and wrote this book.
[00:22:41] But I, I, there was, you know, three different versions that I had written and illustrated that were, you know, rejected by publishers everywhere. I'm going to post up some of my rejection letters at some point.
[00:22:53] Azhelle Wade: So how, like, this is a great lesson because so many toy inventors that might be listening or like, 'Oh, Azhelle, I just have this one idea. I just want to pitch this one idea to Mattel. Cause I know it's perfect for them.' And I always have to go back and tell them like, listen, you really want to pitch 10 ideas. So what would you, what do you say to people that are like, I just want to pitch the one book, the one thing and that's it.
[00:23:15] Charles George Esperanza: Well, you know what, this is going to be a little contrary to what you just said.
[00:23:19] Azhelle Wade: I figured I had a feeling. I was told. I was forewarned. Okay, go ahead.
[00:23:26] Charles George Esperanza: So this story, 'Red, Yellow, Blue', I had written in Eric Velasquez's class. And he gave me an A in the class and getting an A from Eric Velasquez is very difficult.
[00:23:38] Azhelle Wade: Okay.
[00:23:38] Charles George Esperanza: So he, you know, believed in it and I just really believed in this book as well.
[00:23:44] Azhelle Wade: What's it about? Now that you're saying that, what's it about? Tell us what it's about.
[00:23:47] Charles George Esperanza: So, this book is basically inspired by my little sister who would, uh, paint on everything and she had an Afro just like this. And I noticed that adults did not know the primary colors, you know, adults and kids as well.
[00:24:06] So I was like, you know what, I want to make a fun book teaching about how to mix the primary colors into the secondary colors. So I created this book, 'Red, Yellow, Blue', and a little bit of the story behind this, I took this to a big publisher back in maybe 2012. And one of the editors. This is when I only had the black girl as the main character and an editor told me that, you know, 'Well, if you really want to get, you know, a book published, you should maybe consider having an animal as the main character because more kids, every race could relate to the main character that way.'
[00:24:48] And I was just like, that is very racist. I didn't say that, but I took that into account and that was like, maybe my first big thing eyeopening experience in the business that, you know, there is racism, there is bias, there is this kind of ignorance. So that kind of, I took that back to Eric Velasquez and he, you know, he wasn't even surprised that, you know, someone would say that to me.
[00:25:12] And I was like, should I make the main character, you know, keep the main character, a little black girl, or should I make it like, you know, an animal? And he's like, 'That's up to you. That's your decision.' Like what, you know, path you want to take as an artist. And so I compromised because I love elephants and I kept a little black girl, but I added a character in there too.
[00:25:36] And you know what? I actually am happy that I added the elephant because the elephant is just a fun character who I actually love. But also it showed kind of the, this story kind of shows the pressure of black artists. Yeah. You know, this was booked in 2012. This is before, I don't know if it's cool to be black now, but it was even less cool to be black in 2012.
[00:25:59] There was much less of a, of a prioritizing advocacy for black art at that time. So there was just a lot of pressure to fit into a mold then. And I think that's changed a lot now, which is definitely for the better. So that's, that's how 'Red, Yellow, Blue' came about.
[00:26:17] Azhelle Wade: I actually have heard people in the toy industry say the same story, where they've been told to change the kids to animals for the same reason.
[00:26:23] Charles George Esperanza: So as you can see with that story, I didn't change my idea, but I did alter my idea. Yeah. I altered my idea many, many times until I found someone who was like, yes, this is exactly This is perfect. And I think you're going to have to find your, your audience, your editor. In picture books, it's your editor. A lot of editors wouldn't give me the opportunity to do 'Boogie Boogie Y'all' or 'Red, Yellow, Blue', but I found the one editor that was like, 'Yes. I'm going to take a chance on you.' And I'm very thankful for that.
[00:26:55] Azhelle Wade: But there's a difference in having to like into altering your idea, but keeping your value system in place, right? Then it is like completely just changing it to fit in the mold. And I think that what you are doing is, I mean, you made sure that you could just keep your value systems in place and alter it, but I see already with ' Boogie Boogie Y'all' how now you're like, 'Well, I've got credibility now, but I don't need to change.'
[00:27:17] Right? Yeah. So tell us a little bit about that. I want to hear about 'Boogie Boogie Y'all' and I can see your style, how it's evolving. And I always love asking artists, like, how do you develop your style? Because it's something I always struggled with. I still don't have a style artistically. So did you discover your style like while you were making 'Boogie Boogie Y'all'?
[00:27:36] Was it before that you were done? Like how, like, you feel like it's still evolving? Tell us about that.
[00:27:40] Charles George Esperanza: Oh yes, definitely still evolving. You know, once I did 'Red, Yellow, Blue', the publisher that I worked with paid me nothing. I still don't see any royalties from that. It's all legal. I signed the contract and everything. I did this mostly because I wasn't getting any opportunities before this.
[00:27:58] And I was like, I want to do this book to show everyone what I can do. And I was young, I was broke, and it was okay because I was living with my parents. So I was like, I need to take this opportunity to, you know, make stuff happen. while I don't have a kid to pay for it. So I threw it all in the wind. I did 'Red, Yellow, Blue' basically for free.
[00:28:23] And I thank myself every day that I did that, that I made that decision because I didn't get any money per se from royalties from the book, but I, you know, I was able to go do different events and I'm still getting paid to come to libraries in Philadelphia and just read the book and you know, I'm, I'm happy to read the book, but you're actually paying me now too.
[00:28:47] I bought a bunch of the books and I sell it for, you know, almost twice the price that you find in retail and people are willing to buy it from me because I'm signing it. And I got on the radar of so many people I wouldn't have otherwise. I was written about on Buzzfeed, Huffington Post.
[00:29:06] Azhelle Wade: Oh, I didn't know that.
[00:29:08] Charles George Esperanza: Yeah, I was getting a whole bunch of write ups. Because I took that chance and I, you know, I worked almost for free, I was able to dream bigger. Though I will say there still was a lot of, of pushback from the publishing industry because I was trying to get an agent. One agent that I met, a white woman, was like, You know, your art is too artsy.
[00:29:33] It looks like it should be in a museum. It's not for kids. And I would be like,
[00:29:37] Azhelle Wade: What? People are trying to dumb down kids.
[00:29:39] Charles George Esperanza: Yeah. Yeah. And especially in this day and age where. what kids like and what adults like, like the lines are more blurred now than I think ever before in history. So I was just like, I took the criticism, but I didn't change. I just, the stubbornness comes back into play. Yeah,
[00:29:59] If I like it, I'm going to keep doing it that way.
[00:30:03] Azhelle Wade: Well, because like, when you love something, the love comes out when you execute it. And In order to make it, you're gonna have to be, you're gonna have to be able to be, like, to just not stop, to be resilient, to just keep going, and if you don't love it, you're not gonna do that.
[00:30:17] So you can't, you can't always change who you are just to fit the mold, because it'll show, you know?
[00:30:23] Charles George Esperanza: Certainly, yeah, it'll be inauthentic, and that's the one thing that I would never want my art to come across as, is inauthentic art. Trying to portray something that I'm not. So
[00:30:34] Azhelle Wade: I want you to have time to talk about 'Boogie Boogie Y'all.'
[00:30:36] So let's talk about this ridiculously amazing book that you you got an opportunity to have a book published with Harper Collins. First of all, I want to hear a little bit about that story. And then you illustrated this beautiful book and created a song. To go with it. I mean, there's a lot to dive into here.
[00:30:55] So how did this even start? Tell me about the phone call. What happened?
[00:30:59] Charles George Esperanza: After I did 'Red, Yellow, Blue', I was like, 'All right, y'all see what I can do now.' You see my article in the Huffington post. You see me in Buzzfeed. Y'all see,
[00:31:08] Azhelle Wade: See me in Buzzfeed.
[00:31:09] Charles George Esperanza: So yeah, you seen me in Buzzfeed. So like, where's the money now? And you know what? Huffington Post, all of the, all of the read alouds that were going up on YouTube, you know, librarians reading my book, I was getting a lot of love. Agents were like, no, no, we still don't believe that it's a viable style. We don't think that you're marketable. That was one of the things I was told.
[00:31:34] Azhelle Wade: Oh, and then like what happened? Oh my.
[00:31:36] Charles George Esperanza: Yeah. So I was just like, I was ready to give up.
[00:31:40] Azhelle Wade: Oh, you're marketable now.
[00:31:41] Charles George Esperanza: Yeah. So I was like, you know what? I need to not be broke anymore. Let me find out what else I'm passionate about that I can do. Yeah. So then I got into education. I went back to an art school in the Bronx that I did my first painting at.
[00:31:57] I never, I never painted after that. So FIT still taught me to paint. But this is like the first try at painting. It was called the Bronx River Art Center. And so I called them up and I was like, 'Do you need an art teacher? Like I have a BFA in illustration from FIT'. I went there as a kid in the year 2000, 2001, they were like, 'Yeah, come in for an interview.'
[00:32:21] So I was like, you know, really happy about that. When I got there, I recognized that it was, it had, it had fallen a lot from when I was first there, it was in, in disrepair and they weren't in the best place, but I was still like, 'Yo, I don't have any teaching experience, the illustration thing ain't working out.
[00:32:40] So, you know, I'm going to give this a shot.' They put me in a high school to do afterschool programs. And it was, it was, it was a challenge. Getting Bronx kids. In the Bronx, excited about painting and art sometimes can be super challenging because it was a basketball school as well. So they were all into basketball, but I found the art nerds here and there.
[00:33:01] I'd roll the hallways with my flyers and I'd be like, Hey, you like art? Do you want to, you want to learn to paint? And they'd be like, are you, what are you? And I was like, I did this book, 'Red, Yellow, Blue, and a Dash of White too'. And they'd be like, 'Oh, that's cool.' So they, you know, I got some kids joining and it was really fun.
[00:33:19] I think it was. Some of the funnest times I ever had and from there I went to better organizations, much better organizations. Don't, don't go to Bronx River Arts Center, anybody.
[00:33:29] Azhelle Wade: Oh my gosh.
[00:33:32] Charles George Esperanza: I went to much better organizations like, uh, Dream Yard in the Bronx, an amazing arts organization. I went to Groundswell. I learned to paint murals.
[00:33:44] Azhelle Wade: I had no idea this is why you started an education.
[00:33:48] Charles George Esperanza: I didn't see it as something I had to do. I was like, what else am I passionate about? And I thought that this was something, you know, that I could do, that I could be proud of. I didn't want a job that I would just be waking up in the morning, just slaving away to get money.
[00:34:04] I wanted to do something I was positive about. So I went into education and even as a, you know, successful, successful,
[00:34:12] Azhelle Wade: You are successful.
[00:34:15] Charles George Esperanza: A picture book illustrator, I still, I'm still in education and I won't give it up because it's actually very fulfilling and 'Boogie Boogie Y'all' came from me hanging out with Bronx kids and painting murals and actually being forced to spend time in my home borough of the Bronx because all my friends lived in Brooklyn and Queens.
[00:34:35] So, me having to be and work in the Bronx, I had to learn about the art scene that was going on here. I had to go to the Bronx Museum. I had to learn about the graffiti scene that was going on and the local artists that were around here. So if I wasn't forced to, to find something else besides, you know, picture book illustration, 'Boogie Boogie Y'all' wouldn't exist because, you know, that detour. made me even better. So I'm very happy, happy for that.
[00:35:10] Azhelle Wade: So what is 'Boogie Boogie Y'all' about?
[00:35:13] Charles George Esperanza: So 'Boogie Boogie Y'all' is basically, well, I teach at a community center near Fordham Road, and I noticed an amazing graffiti piece outside of our community center. I took a picture of it and I brought it in. I put it on the screen in class.
[00:35:33] And the kids were like, Whoa, and I was like, isn't that cool? They were like, yeah, that's so awesome. Did you see that in like a museum or something? I was like, what are you talking about? This is like across the street. Like, did you not see this on the way coming in? Like it was new at the time. So I'm like, y'all definitely should have noticed this.
[00:35:50] And then I, I, that kind of made me realize like kids didn't really take a look at their surroundings and like pay attention to the art on the wall. So I asked them also like, what do you know about graffiti? What, what is your perception of it? A lot of them were saying, you know, recycled things from decades ago.
[00:36:09] You know, Oh, it's gangs, it's gang symbols. It's. You know, it's vandalism, it's this, it's that, and I was just kinda like, graffiti is probably the most accessible form of art there is. Kids who have never taken an art class wanna do graffiti. If you live in the Bronx, New York City, it's some of the first art that you're going to associate with your home.
[00:36:34] And if you associate the art that's around your home with gangs and negative things, You're always going to think that about where you live and you're going to think that about yourself because you are, in a sense, where you come from. So I made 'Boogie Boogie Y'all' to kind of, any book that I kind of make now, I want to try and challenge the status quo.
[00:36:53] So 'Boogie Boogie Y'all' is a challenge to the status quo. I want teachers to have a conversation about graffiti with their kids. And even if they don't have a conversation about it, I want them to have to think about it. If they hate graffiti, I want them to have to be like, I like this book a lot, but it's about something I hate and it's fun to read aloud and, you know, a mainstream publisher published it.
[00:37:14] So maybe it's okay. So I want them to grapple with that kind of stuff. And yeah, so that's why I'm happy 'Boogie Boogie Y'all' exists.
[00:37:22] Azhelle Wade: And the whole book rhymes.
[00:37:24] Charles George Esperanza: Yes. The whole book is a rap song.
[00:37:26] Azhelle Wade: Okay.
[00:37:27] Charles George Esperanza: There's an audio book version out right now. If you go on Audible, 'Boogie Boogie Y'all, CG Esperanza'. My nephew, MC Ian, who is a, one of the main characters in the book is also featured.
[00:37:43] In the audio book, he's rapping in the audio book.
[00:37:47] Azhelle Wade: But how long did it take you to do this book? How many pages is this book? How long did it take you to paint it? Write it?
[00:37:53] Charles George Esperanza: So this book actually took way longer than it was supposed to. My deadline was getting pushed back over and over again and part of that was because I was trying to figure out my style while I was doing the book because it was it's been so long since I did 'Red, Yellow, Blue'. 'Red, Yellow, Blue' was published in 2015 and I stopped doing picture books for about maybe two, three years and got back into it in 2018 when 'Boogie Boogie Y'all' got picked up.
[00:38:24] Well, I didn't stop doing picture books. I just it wasn't like I I wasn't emailing editors and art, and agents, you know, 24 7 like I was. But I had written this book and I was, yeah, so it, this got published, this just came out 2021. It was supposed to come out in 2020, but it got pushed back because of needing to oil paint everything and make it perfect.
[00:38:46] So yeah, it's a couple of years in between, which I'm happy it didn't come out in 2020 because that was a horrible time to put out a book.
[00:38:52] Azhelle Wade: Yeah. Honestly, your book, I think your, your books do look like they belong in a museum. I would 100 percent print out a page of your book and put it up like a, like a piece in my, in my house.
[00:39:04] It's, it's, it's beautiful. I mean, I love your style.
[00:39:07] Charles George Esperanza: Thank you so much.
[00:39:08] Azhelle Wade: So when you finished it, when you finished the book and you work with Harper Collins, how does that whole process work for people that are like, Oh, I'm interested. I want to be an illustrator. Once you get the deal.
[00:39:17] Charles George Esperanza: I ended up, you know, I was just trying my best to network with people in the industry as much as I could.
[00:39:25] I learned about an amazing agent and I was just like, you know, I might as well try, see if she would like to represent me. And to my surprise, she was interested and I was just, you know, so excited. And she came to see me at the, uh, Bronx Book Festival. I performed there for the first annual Bronx Book Festival.
[00:39:48] I knew she was going to be there, so I came in my blue jacket. I brought my music. I brought, it was a rainy day and only three kids showed up. And I was like, I don't care. I'm gonna come 100 percent me. I'm gonna give those three kids the best show ever. I came with my drums, everything. And yeah, I had a blast.
[00:40:09] Marietta was there and she's my agent and she was just like, we need to work together. I'm so excited. I was just like, super happy about that. And also I got photographed for the New York Times too that day too. Always come your best because you never know. Even if it's a rainy day and only three kids show up, New York Times and an agent might be there.
[00:40:30] Yeah, so
[00:40:32] Azhelle Wade: That happens to everybody. Okay, so you got the deal. You start working on the book. You're working on it for two years too long. And then it comes out and what happens next? Like when it comes out, you started making some promo materials. They made promo materials, right? Like what's that process like?
[00:40:47] Charles George Esperanza: Yes. So when I, when I was at a Sky Pony, that was a really, really small publisher and they almost put no promotion into my book.
[00:40:57] Azhelle Wade: And for the listeners, Sky Pony is for 'Red, Yellow, Blue, and a dash of White too!'
[00:41:02] Charles George Esperanza: They no longer exist as Sky Pony. They're Sky Horse Publishing now. They got rid of their children's book imprint.
[00:41:08] They're famous for publishing books by Woody Allen and Michael Cohen and other evil people.
[00:41:13] Okay.
[00:41:14] Yeah, they're like the Spirit Airlines of the publishing industry.
[00:41:16] Azhelle Wade: Oh my gosh. They put no promo behind them.
[00:41:19] Charles George Esperanza: They put no money into my promotion. But good work will be seen. They, Huffington Post. still saw it.
[00:41:28] So because I worked with this publisher that didn't really promote me, I had to learn to promote myself. I had to learn to print out stickers, go to events and, you know, pass out flyers. And just anything I could do to promote myself. So now I'm with, you know, Harper Collins, one of the top five publishers in the world.
[00:41:47] I think maybe top, top three now, top two, because now merging. So now that I'm working with them, they put tons and tons of money into promotion. They made an animation of my book. It just like, yeah,
[00:42:00] Azhelle Wade: it's amazing.
[00:42:01] Charles George Esperanza: So anything, anything I need there, you know, they put me on a nationwide Radio and TV tour. So if you, yeah, if you Google CG Esperanza 'Boogie, Boogie, Y'all', you'll see I heart Radio Interviews, different radio stations.
[00:42:18] This was like August 10th, the day the book came out. So the interviews are sprinkled all over the internet now. And that was my PR person. It was like, amazing. Like she was on it.
[00:42:28] Azhelle Wade: You got a PR person?.
[00:42:30] Charles George Esperanza: Yeah. So yeah. Harper Collins doesn't play.
[00:42:32] Azhelle Wade: Wow.
[00:42:33] Charles George Esperanza: Wow. So I was super happy about that. But then I still have this mentality, like, Charles, you need to promote yourself.
[00:42:40] Azhelle Wade: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what'd you do? So
[00:42:42] Charles George Esperanza: I do some stuff and sometimes they're like, Charles, you don't need to do that. We don't, we're good. But still I'm like, no, I need to put my own vision on my promotion too. So this music video I'm coming out with is totally a Charles George Esperanza thing.
[00:42:58] Azhelle Wade: Live action.
[00:42:59] Charles George Esperanza: It is live action. My nephew, Ian, MC Ian will be starring in the video as well as some other stars. So we'll see.
[00:43:08] Azhelle Wade: If you need anyone else, you know?
[00:43:10] Charles George Esperanza: You have amazing dance moves, so
[00:43:12] Azhelle Wade: I remember you trying to get me in there to dance, right? I forgot about that. Okay. Well, okay. I do want to ask before we wrap up, I feel like this is a great teaching moment for you.
[00:43:24] You might be caught off guard, but it's okay. You can take time to think. Where do you get your ideas for self promotion? Cause you did, you came up with this rap song. It's such a good idea. You said you went handed out postcards when you did 'Red, Yellow, Blue', you come all dressed to the nines, which I think is a part of your whole, you're driving a persona.
[00:43:42] So people want to come to your speaking engagements, but where do you get these ideas for somebody that needs to do self promotion?
[00:43:49] Charles George Esperanza: You know, I just, I don't even really get them from anywhere. I just kind of think to myself, like, how can I make the most of this? If I go to an event where I'm reading to kids, I'm like, how can I make the most of that?
[00:44:00] Am I going to wear a, uh, you know, a polo button down shirt? Or am I going to dress like, Whoa, who is this guy? He's weird. I feel like I'm an extension of my art. Yeah. What I wear is an extension of my art. So yeah, I dressed like a character from one of my books. And yeah, as for, you know, everybody loves stickers.
[00:44:22] Everybody loves, you know, free. anything. So if you can give someone a free thing and it looks like it should be paid for, they're going to remember it.
[00:44:33] Azhelle Wade: That is really true. One more quick question. So you think about how can you make the most of it? So is it fair to say that you thought of your book that rhymes and you said, how can I make the most of the fact that I made this whole rap book?
[00:44:46] And then that's why you made that song. Yeah.
[00:44:48] Charles George Esperanza: I grew up a kid who didn't like to read. I used to make up books and tell my teachers that I read those books because we had a book log. Everybody knows about the book log. Yes. So I just make up names and make up names of authors. And maybe that's where my creativity came from.
[00:45:03] Azhelle Wade: You didn't get caught because I did something and they caught me.
[00:45:06] Charles George Esperanza: They never caught me. You know, Google didn't exist. in 1994. So thankfully, or my teachers were lazy, one of the two. Shout out to teachers. Y'all are awesome. I know you're overworked and underpaid. Okay. So much love. So yeah, I was like, I need to make this book musical to make it something that little Charles would be like, yo.
[00:45:30] And I remember my first my first ever interaction with rap was Criss Cross. The song Jump Jump. Oh,
[00:45:36] Azhelle Wade: oh, oh.
[00:45:37] Charles George Esperanza: You know, jump, jump, I'm at daddy make a, jump, jump, I'm at daddy make a, yeah, Criss Cross to make it. And everybody was wearing that clothes, Criss Cross, remember that?
[00:45:46] Azhelle Wade: No, I don't remember the video.
[00:45:47] Uh.
[00:45:48] Charles George Esperanza: Definitely watch the video. I remember the video. That, like, that blew my, I remember, um, Show and Tell, I would always bring in a vinyl for We Are the World, cause that was my favorite song, and one kid brought in a tape, the Criss Cross tape. And I never listened to We Are The World again after that. I broke it in half, threw it out.
[00:46:06] I was like, this is my new jam. And a couple years later, I made 'Boogie Boogie Y'all.'
[00:46:12] Azhelle Wade: Wow. I love, I mean, I love it. I hope everybody, everyone listening, this is the toy coach telling you that you need to go out there and buy 'Boogie Boogie Y'all'. We'll put all the links in the show notes. But Charles, tell me what else is coming up for you?
[00:46:24] Like what you going to do next? How many more books you got in the book?
[00:46:26] Charles George Esperanza: Well, I'm working on a book now that's about sneakers, and I don't want to spoil the surprise, but there's a lot of sneakers in it. And it also has to do with destigmatizing something in the black and brown community. Not too overtly, but you know, it's, it's in there.
[00:46:46] And I think this is probably the best thing I ever wrote.
[00:46:49] Azhelle Wade: Whoa! Really?
[00:46:51] Charles George Esperanza: I actually think it's the best thing I ever wrote. So I'm really excited. It's coming out in 2023. And then more recently, I have Soul Food Sunday, a book I didn't write, but I illustrated. Oh, yeah, that yeah, that book is coming out in November, this November, just in time for Thanksgiving.
[00:47:08] And it's written by Winsome Bingham, amazing author. And yeah, so that one, look out for that one, Abrams book.
[00:47:16] Azhelle Wade: Yeah, give me all the links. We'll put all those links in the show notes. Are you going to oil paint this next book?
[00:47:20] Charles George Esperanza: You know what? I'm thinking of trying out acrylics just so I can get faster. You know, it's always evolving.
[00:47:27] Azhelle Wade: So before we go, is there anything else that you want to say, Charles?
[00:47:31] Charles George Esperanza: Yeah, there's one more thing I want to say. Yo, yo, if you got a toy idea, let her know. Don't skip it and don't let go. Build it up with the toy coach. Decipher the Rubik's cube. Simon says, follow your dreams. Slip and slide into success.
[00:47:43] Easy, big, top it with cream. Don't be a potato head, your dream house awaits. See your name in bright lights like light brightness. Fate, bop it, twist it, pull it, pass it. Take a new approach. Holler at Azhelle Wade aka The Toy Coach.
[00:47:56] Azhelle Wade: Wow. I cannot believe you did that. What? Oh my. Thank you. That was awesome.
[00:48:04] Charles George Esperanza: You're very welcome. You're very welcome.
[00:48:06] Azhelle Wade: I'm going to need an in person reading because I know you're coming over for a game night. Wow. That was awesome. Thank you so much.
[00:48:14] Charles George Esperanza: I had to freestyle a little thing for you. Freestyle a little thing.
[00:48:17] Azhelle Wade: Oh my god. That was awesome. Okay. Wow. I don't. Why? Shouldn't even say anything else, actually.
[00:48:26] Thank you so much for this amazing conversation and this visual treat that you really brought to us today.
[00:48:33] Charles George Esperanza: I was trying to outshine you, but I don't know if I did or not.
[00:48:36] Azhelle Wade: I think you did. Thanks so much for coming on the show today. It was a pleasure having you. Where can people connect with you?
[00:48:43] Charles George Esperanza: I am CG Esperanza on all. social media platforms. That's CG Esperanza. You can see the spelling there. Yeah. And my book, my book, 'Boogie Boogie Y'all' is in stores everywhere.
[00:48:59] Azhelle Wade: Everywhere.
[00:48:59] Charles George Esperanza: Buy, buy, buy from a black owned bookstore. Okay. Like a lip bar.
[00:49:03] Azhelle Wade: Okay.
[00:49:04] Yeah.
[00:49:05] Azhelle Wade: Thank you. Have a wonderful rest of your day. I'll see you later Charles.
[00:49:09] Charles George Esperanza: You too.
[00:49:10] Azhelle Wade: Take care.
[00:49:10] Charles George Esperanza: Catch you later.
[00:49:11] Azhelle Wade: Bye.
[00:49:12] Before I dive into my summary of today's episode, I've got to give a listener shout out to Andrew Darlow. Andrew says, a must listen for anyone in the toy biz. It's difficult to put into words how much I've learned and how much I've been inspired by Azhelle and her guests.
[00:49:31] As a product developer slash inventor who aspires to create and license my toy ideas, this podcast is filled with supportive ideas and people who are either where I'd like to be or who regularly work with inventors. Andrew, thank you so much for your wonderful review. I appreciate you and I'm so happy to have you as a student now inside of Toy Creators Academy.
[00:49:56] Let's dive in to the conclusion of today's episode. The number one takeaway I want you to pull from today's talk with Charles, with CG Esperanza, is that success is not a straight line. There are twists, turns, even roadblocks along the way. And it's okay to take a step off of your desired path that you think will lead you straight to success, to take a little detour whenever there might be a roadblock and not be afraid to hop back on.
[00:50:27] On that path, when the way clears up much like Charles did after creating 'Red, Yellow, Blue, (and a Dash of White too!)', when he couldn't land another book deal, he actually turned to teaching art. He turned to education, something he could believe in and be proud of. Now that detour wasn't the end of his journey.
[00:50:47] So a detour for you doesn't mean the end of your toy journey, either. My friends. In fact, oftentimes that detour can enrich you and your journey and Inspired the next step on your desired toy path, much like how teaching an art class to kids in the Bronx inspired Charles's latest book, 'Boogie Boogie Y'all'.
[00:51:08] Now your action item for next week is this. Go buy my friend's book. You can grab the link to buy your own copy of 'Boogie Boogie Y'all' by heading over to thetoycoach.com/248. And if you love it, leave a positive review, okay? Now, as always, thank you so much for spending time with me today. I know your time is extremely valuable and there are a ton of podcasts out there.
[00:51:36] So it means the world to me that you tune into this one. Until next week. I'll see you later toy people.
[00:51:44] Thanks for listening to the Making It In The Toy Industry Podcast with Azhelle Wade. Head over to thetoycoach.com for more information, tips, and advice.
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