Episode #52: The Business of Baby Toys with Brad Reese
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If you’re a fan of the holiday toy sensation Elf on the Shelf, you may already be familiar with the Lumistella Company. Today’s guest is Brad Reese, and he is the Director of Product Development at this very company! Brad’s experience in the toy industry includes working with brands such as Disney and Baby Einstein, and while his expertise spans a wide range of ages, today we’re going to delve into all things, baby and infant.
In this episode, we’ll talk about the biggest challenges a toy creator might face when developing their baby toy ideas, and how certain rules and safety regulations could trip you up or slow your development process. In this episode, Brad gives valuable advice on developing a baby product from marketing, to testing, and closes out with three golden rules to follow when designing baby toys.
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Learn more about The Lumistella Company by Clicking Here.
Learn more about Lumistella’s kids’ website by Clicking Here.
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Azhelle
You are listening to Making It in The Toy Industry, Episode Number 52.
Intro/Outro + Jingle Welcome to Making It in The Toy Industry, a podcast for inventors and entrepreneurs like you. And now your host Azhelle Wade
Azhelle Hey there toy people Azhelle Wade here and welcome back to another episode of Making It in The Toy Industry. This is a weekly podcast brought to you by thetoycoach.com. Today I am joined by Brad Reese, Director of Product Development at the Lumistella Company, which if you didn't know is the company responsible for the Christmas sensation Elf on the Shelf. Brad has been designing toys and leading toy design teams for the past 16 years. Currently, Brad is the Director of Product Development. Brad's work with brands like Disney, Baby Einstein, and more have garnered over 10 patents and won numerous awards, including toy of the year, and Doctor toys best toys. Before his current role with Lumistella Company, Brad was the Director of Global experience design for kids too. And while his current role has been focusing on products for the age range of four to six, I actually invited Brad on the show today to talk about all things baby and infant. On this podcast, I really haven't had enough episodes dedicated to the baby side of the toy business. So I'm really excited to have the opportunity to dive into that today. Brad, welcome to the show. I'm so happy to have you here.
Brad
Well, thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here,
Azhelle
Brad to kick things off. Why don't you first just tell us a little bit about what you do today as Director of Product Development at the Lumistella Company?
Brad
Sure. Well, if you ask my kids, they would say I work for Santa, which is pretty cool. But in reality, what I do is I lead a team of designers to develop products. And we work on kind of spreading the stories of the North Pole through the products and toys that we develop. And just try to keep kids and parents really engaged with our brands. We work on a lot of different categories, everything from toys to craft games, plush dolls, and it seems to be growing every day more and more.
Azhelle
I know Lumistella is very much more an IP focused company
Brad
We are Yeah, we have a longest established brand, which is Elf on the Shelf. And so a lot of parents everywhere know that. And it's been around for about 15 years. And we've also started to grow some other brands related to the North Pole. And so really, where we're moving is everything is about telling the stories of the North Pole and bringing the characters and the lore of that world to life.
Azhelle
That's awesome. And before I know we're gonna talk baby today, but before we go there, before we move away from Elf on the Shelf, I have to talk about the Netflix deal you guys just landed because it's all over the internet in the toy world anyway, tell me about that.
Brad
Well, I I really wish I could take much credit for that. But it really is. I mean, of course I will. But it's it's really a culmination of years of hard work that really started long before I was there. Like I said that the company has been around for 15 years, and really has put in a lot of effort to grow from a single product of that elf to a turning it into a cultural icon, and really creating a whole world of storytelling and lore around it. It really kind of started to come to life back in 2011 when the first animated special was created. And since then there have been four animated specials that really kids are starting to fall in love with and kind of bring into their homes. And then along with that there's been just really intense and very effective marketing efforts over the years, everything from being part of the Macy's Day Parade with a giant balloon and a float every year. More recently, we've had brand partnerships, they've helped grow the brand. We got our first cereal last year, which was pretty cool.
Azhelle
That is pretty cool.
Brad
Yeah, so it's really all of that. And then, you know, my role recently has been bringing more interaction to help bring these things to life. So allowing kids to to interact with toys and related products, beyond the kind of core product of the elf on the shelf.
Azhelle
Okay, that's awesome. Now, before your current role with Lumistella Company, you actually worked at a company called Kids II, and you focused on baby products. So that's what I want to talk about today. Like what was your biggest challenge? And when you had to switch your mind away from baby over into this 46 age range to work on things like Elf on the Shelf?
Brad
Well, there were some elements that really felt very familiar to me. You know, the principles of good toy design were the same. The development process is really the same. But I think what really changed were the considerations for for play interaction and really the biggest changes has been the fact that we can work within imagination, which really isn't a factor for, for babies, everything is so kind of purely developmental, and, you know, everything is just emerging for for children. But now in this age range, our whole world is based around imagination, and you know, very much like the Harry Potter World that we're kind of starting to build. And that's been a big change. But you know, also the the consumers change and how we market has changed in baby, we're developing a lot of products with solely the caregiver in mind. So it was all about getting to the parent, obviously, a newborn baby can barely move much less, make decisions about what toys they want, right, but now, you know, kids play a role in discovering toys, you know, seeking them out, putting them on their Christmas list, and obviously even promoting, you know, through unboxing videos and YouTube channels and things like that. So it's, it's a very different world in terms of the role that the kids play. But you know, I think a lot of the same principles apply. And, you know, I think safety is a big factor. But if anything, it's gotten a little bit, kind of, I had to do almost deprogram myself of a lot of the safety considerations for baby and kind of think differently. And it also kind of opened up a lot of boundaries in terms of the types of products we could do,
Azhelle
like, how did how did you have to change your thinking to be able to design products or come up with ideas for older kids?
Brad
Well, I think a lot of it became where the inspiration and the kind of the research came from, you know, again, prior it was all about what trends are parents following? What are they looking for? And now it's about what are what are kids looking for, you know, we just this year are launching collectible blind packs of miniature figures. And that was something that would never have made sense, you know, collectability was not a thing. And so for baby, because that's a desire that kids are having. And so having to think and observe kids in a different way, you know, one thing I will say is that suddenly my own children became a lot more useful as a research group, because yeah, they you know, at the time I started, they were five and nine, and I was sort of like, the, the bookends of our age group, it was perfect. And so you can ask questions, you can get responses, you can test products, and use that to to evolve them, you know, it's a lot harder to get babies to cooperate. And so yeah, it's been really, really interesting. But, you know, at the same time, we've also been able to keep the discipline of the process, because a lot of that a lot of schedules are the same, you know, we still have to hit Christmas every year. So that's been kind of the bedrock that's been able to kind of keep it consistent for me,
Azhelle
when you first started out in baby products, did you want to go into baby products? Or was that the plan? You know,
Brad
I would love to say that I was a lifetime dream of mine. But it really wasn't even on my radar. It started out as an internship. So I went to Georgia Tech for industrial design, and Kids II was local, but I had never heard of them. And they came to the school to interview and I thought, you know, I'd done a few projects in school that were, you know, juvenile related, but never toys hadn't even really crossed my mind. And then to find out that there's a baby toy company in town, you know, kind of just opened up a lot of possibilities. And so I was able to get an internship. And after that point, I mean, once you're in toy, there's really, there's no other way to go. There's no turning back. Yeah.
Azhelle
So true. So true. When we first started, did you did you find it challenging, or boring or interesting compared to the stuff you were doing in school,
Brad
it was definitely interesting to say the least, I was discovering something new I'd never heard about never studied. It was also, I think a lot of people might be afraid of all the constraints and the requirements and all that jumping into toy and specifically baby toy. But for me, I kind of enjoyed the challenge. You know, in school, you don't have a lot of constraints. It's all about kind of finding your your voice and self expression. And a lot of the problems or that you're trying to solve are kind of given to you by professors. And here, I had this whole new world of new constraints, which really pushed me to think differently, and even you know, design and even sketch differently. So I think it was very eye opening. I think I didn't have the typical intern experience. You know, there was no grunt work, there's no getting coffee. I went immediately into sketching products when I had my first product hit shelves within a year of being an intern, which is pretty, pretty rare.
Azhelle
So actually, I feel like this might be a good thing to mention. What was your major before you started? At Kids II
Brad
it was industrial design.
Azhelle
Right? So a lot of my listeners, that our students are always interested in hearing how you transfer over from a non toy degree of the toy industry into a job in the toy industry was there Something in your portfolio or something you said in your interview that you think caught the eye of the hiring managers that kids do?
Brad
Well, I think in my case, I actually interviewed for the internship in my junior year, and I didn't get it. Ah, you know, I took that to heart, I took that as a challenge. And I realized that my education wasn't going to give me everything I needed, if I just stuck to what class asked for. So I did a bunch of independent projects, a lot was over that summer, I entered contests that I don't think I want a single one of them, but they gave me the motivation to sketch and design different types of categories. And I did get the opportunity then to shift my senior thesis project, I did choose to shift that over to a not a baby product, but a children's cooking aid, that allowed kids to kind of in a simple way, step through cooking, so that was able to adjust course, but I really only adjusted course in the last year of school. And I think what they would like to think what they saw was maybe not that I had all this focus in toy or in children's products, but that I kind of stepped up to a challenge. And I took the initiative to kind of hone my own skills and realize where I was lacking and kind of build that up myself. And I think that's kind of what I've been doing now for 16 years is building new skills, never getting complacent and trying to always get better. So
Azhelle
I think that's really good advice. You're always learning. There's always more to learn. Yeah, things are changing every second of the way. But I I'm curious, when you first started, how did you approach all of the regulations? Because you didn't know. So how did you learn? Like, did you just design something and you go to your boss, and they'd say, oh, that won't work because of XYZ? Or did you actually read a book about this, about the rules and regulations for baby products?
Brad
I wish there was a book that would have that would have helped a lot, right? I guess technically, there is a book, but it's written by regulators and lawyers, and it's not a fun read. Hmm. So you know, I, I had the benefit of being surrounded by people who had been doing this for a long time. So I learned a lot by making mistakes. I definitely made some designs that would either seriously injured a kid or would just would look horrible. Yeah, I had to relearn things that I just didn't cone in, in design school. I mean, within a couple weeks, that was having to sketch cute, adorable little animals. And believe me, the Georgia Tech industry design program does not prepare you for that. But I learned by observing a lot that Oh, the reason that everything is so cute, and bubbly and round was is partially because of safety. And you have to think in in a different way.
Azhelle
So what would you say in your career in baby was your biggest accomplishment?
Brad
It's actually one of my most recent, in my mind, it was a project that was kind of placed in my lap. You know, I'd been at Kids II, for 13 years, 12 or 13 years at that point. And it became almost like a like a capstone project, or almost like a thesis project where it feels like I used everything that I learned, leading up to that point. And what it was was a collaboration between Kids II, and specifically our brand of Baby Einstein. And then a company called hoppy, who was basically one of the top three wood toy manufacturers in the world. They're most well known in Europe, but they're really well known in a lot of other circles, but they were headquartered in Ningbo, China. And so basically, I was presented with an open-ended challenge from our executives that said, we want you to lead an effort to work with this company that you've never seen. You've never met anyone from this company. You've never been there and deliver something new in the toddler toy space for Baby Einstein. Oh, wow. Yeah. And oh, by the way, ship it in nine months. Oh, yeah. Yeah,
Azhelle
With testing?
Brad
Everything, everything. Yeah. And we made it happen. But it was, you know, in the middle of it, it was it was high intensity, it was stress. It was a lot of travel, I was going back and forth between the US and China, you know, three, four times during that period. But it's really there's nothing that can compare to that experience of working hand in hand with another company in China right next to their the workshop, the production line, everything was was there. You know, it's really it's my favorite project, because I really got to put everything to use that I learned, you know, whether it was
Azhelle
what was that would you make?
Brad
Well, it ended up being a whole line of products. It was we launched nine products in 2018. I think the cornerstone of the product line was an invention of combining electronics with wood. So we kind of blended the old and the new and Truly came up with something new that really made an impact, we were able to launch the whole product line at Target. You know, it's, it's resulted in further expansion of the line even after I had been finished with it, and a lot of success for the company. And, you know, I think also, I was able to build a lot of great relationships and continue to build ones that I'd already established. But it just took a lot of people. So it was kind of my my honor to be at the helm. of that. It's great.
Azhelle
How do you think that the return on investment ROI for baby products matches up to other toy products now that you're working on arts and crafts and things for the bigger kids four to six?
Brad
Well, I think it depends on the product. But I think in general, I found that ROI can be higher, a lot of the time in baby, the barriers to entry are a little bit lower, actually, you see a lot of startup success, because I think the upfront investment can be pretty low, there's a lot more popularity of, you know, in terms of the types of materials you use, you know, not everything has to be plastic with an expensive injection mold, investment upfront. And a high minimum order, you know, you can work in fabric or wood or rubber. And those are very desirable materials for for baby products. Also, from a marketing standpoint, the marketing is not trying to stand out, in a crowd of kind of emotionally driven marketing, it's a lot more need based. So even though you're designing toys, you're still targeting a time period where he had parents can be very stressed out. And they, they don't really need to just bring one more piece of junk into their life, they kind of want things that provide some some solution. And so you're able to kind of latch on to that, that more basic need in the, in the pyramid, if you will. And you can really speak to two parents. And lastly, the consumer, I think, is a little bit less brand minded. In baby. They're open to new brands, they they don't look for, okay, is this brought to me by Mattel, or, you know, in our case, Kids II was unknown. And a lot of times, it was the product itself, the drew parents the product, so, so you see even one off products be able to make entry into major retailers. But also I think you see a lot more success with kind of smaller retail markets like Etsy, and online shops, because, like I said, you can get to a product pretty quickly. And if you can capture in some desire from parents, then I've seen so many products take off quickly.
Azhelle
And I'm sure so many people are thinking, you know, there's no way kids products have so many limitations and testings that are required, how could it be more affordable to develop a baby product? Aren't there's so many more requirements that you have to meet? So I don't know, I'm thinking, where would you suggest people start? If they have a baby product idea? Where would they start to even estimate the potential like testing, you know, areas that that might hang them up? You know, how do they get an idea of what is okay with maybe products and what is not?
Brad
Okay, well, I think a lot of it is concentrated in the, you know, published toy requirements, which I know are not always publicly available, but I would definitely recommend if someone is thinking about designing a baby toy, you know, it's going to have to pass some pretty intensive lab testing for baby products. And However, you can really you can find a lot of those requirements simply by doing a small investment in the in the STM standards, pretty much all of the requirements are packed into one section of that and you can purchase that chapter, I think it's even less than 100 bucks to really get the the exact language. You can also another path is to go through an existing lab. You know, there are labs out there like bureau Veritas and Intertek IDs, all these labs offer varying levels of service. And one of those is that you can basically buy their advisement on a category so that you can be specific about I'm, I'm designing a teether or undesigned rattle or designing something with electronics and they can advise really without much more than just your, your direction. And they can provide kind of a cheat sheet if you will, on that.
Azhelle
So that's a great tip. Yeah,
Brad
and and i would say you know, one of the first things that was placed on my desk was a set of testing equipment, which some of it you know, is really simpler than most people think there's, you know, little cylinders for testing small parts, you have a little rectangular thing for testing rattles. You know, a lot of these things are mentioned in the requirements, but then there are companies that are making and selling these for purchase. I think the trick is knowing is not being overwhelmed by the number of options out there because a lot of them Don't apply. And so I think starting with the actual requirements is important. And then having those tools available to kind of guide your design. And that's really going to be key to make progress. You know, it's actually I can't believe the number of products I see on Etsy that are popular and are being sold to parents and as baby toys, but wouldn't make it through the door of a testing facility. You know, it's one of those strange kind of paradigms where parents expect the utmost safety from baby toy, but they're willing to buy it from a stranger online, who made it at home, you know, yeah. But, you know, it's tricky to reconcile that. But it's, it's happening. So I think that's why I say that the barriers to entry are pretty low. But the barriers to long term success require that you cover a lot of the background up front with safety, and just making sure that you've designed with those constraints in mind. But like, it's easy to get overwhelmed. But I would encourage anyone to think about what they're doing that what they're interested in doing, what their product may be, and gather requirements around that. And you can leverage labs to help you with that.
Azhelle
So I'm curious like, Are there key warnings and key tests that you saw cropping up a lot in the baby industry that someone might want to know about?
Brad
Yeah, definitely. I would say when you get to products over three years old, you can use warnings to kind of address regulations. So if you have a small part, it's technically okay. As long as you put the warning on there. For baby products, you don't have that option, a small part will fail if you have any sort of small part. And this is not just small parts, like a standalone piece. This is, if you know if it drops it breaks.
Azhelle
Exactly, yes. so ridiculous. He dropped this from 10 feet, and then a small piece of plastic broke off. Yeah, that's a small part.
Brad
Like you took my toy and you dropped it, you hit it, you twisted it, you You burnt it is soaked in in water. And, and and that, but that's
Azhelle
a small part here.
Brad
Yeah. Right. Exactly. And that's, that's what they do. And, you know, it can be, it can be scary. Because, you know, you may think you've passed everything. And then you run into some, you know, watchdog agency saw your product and decided to give it a few extra tests, and it failed. But I think they're really a few guiding tests that really, if you've captured them, then the risk is pretty low.
Azhelle
What did those tests tell us about those?
Brad
Yeah, so small parts, definitely a big one. Then there's the rattle gauge, which sometimes you'll see called the supplemental gauge or the impact gauge, it is literally a block about four inches by three inches with an oval-shaped hole cut in it. And if you lay your product at any angle, every possible angle, and a piece of it makes it through that hole and passes out the other side, any sort of protrusion, then it would fail the test. And so it has to not protrude through. But you know, I have a set at home that it is just 3d printed. And so it's a very easy test gauge to make. But you can also buy them online.
Azhelle
Where do you get them online?
Brad
I would have to google it for you. But I think you did a Google search for baby toy test equipment. Okay, I forget the name of the website. But I
Azhelle
Oh, maybe rattles business. I think I found it. Yeah, okay.
Brad
Yeah. But and that's where it can get overwhelming, because it's probably 100 different scary looking pieces of equipment. But a lot of the ones for toy are just little blocks of steel with holes cut in them. And that's what you use to test. Another big one is very simple. It's called a finger probe, because babies have tiny little fingers, you know, you forget that it's like, it's like the size of a pencil, not the big adult hands. So it's a simple rod that if you can stick it into a hole of a certain size, then either the rod has to pass all the way through or not through at all. And you just kind of learn over over time that you don't have a hole larger than five millimeters or smaller than 13. Right. So just in that range is no fingers land. And over time. Yeah, the benefit of just kind of knowing that I've thought my head but if you keep these gauges around, and you know, before 3d printers were even a thing, we would just do paper printouts of kind of different views, side view top view. And we would just poke at the paper and see Oh, it looks like it's going to fail here fail there. Even that's possible. So rattle gauge, small parts finger probe, and then push and the pull test. And so there's also gauges for that
Azhelle
describe the push and pull test.
Brad
So they basically clamp force gauge, which kind of looks like a hanging weight gauge, and it reads pressure, both polling pressure and pushing pressure. And they just either push it down on the product on your toy and try to see if it cracks or they'll clamp onto it and yank it up to a certain way. So like for certain ages, it's 25 pounds. So 25 pounds of pressure has to be able to be pulled and nothing can rip off or dislodge. So then there must be like key materials that you're used to using and baby products to make sure that they can withstand tests like that. So I'm assuming, like silicone, I'm assuming you said fabric Yes, you know fabric especially if you you know work with a manufacturer who's done baby plush before, they'll know just how to use the right stitches, the strong themes. So fabrics, usually pretty safe, but you want to use a thick enough fabric plastic is obviously a good choice. But certain types of plastic are more brittle than others. So you just have to be careful. And a lot of times that's not a difficult change. You know, if one type of plastic breaks, you switch to a different type soft materials are really great. You can't get too soft because they can tear silicone is a very strong one called TPR that it's soft and bendy. But it's strong.
Azhelle
Yeah, I've heard of that one.
Brad
Yeah, yeah. And it really is probably the most popular plastic in toys is polypropylene because right? It is flexible. Yeah, it can take it can take a beating. Yeah. Whereas ABS is hard and shiny. But it can be brittle. So you know, it's common materials and practices that some people may know. But it's just putting it to good use.
Azhelle
What about creating baby products with like paper? Not necessarily wood? So just paper or cardboard focus?
Brad
paper is difficult for young kids. Because once they if they can bite off a piece, then that's considered a small park.
Azhelle
Stop it. No, it's not. It
Brad
It is.
Azhelle
Yes. Paper biting a piece of paper?
Brad
Yep.
Azhelle
Come on, you are lying. You're lying right now.
Brad
I wish I was we tried so many things, even labels, you put a label on something if it can peel up, you know if it's not thick enough, or if it's a really cheap label, and it starts to peel up.
Azhelle
Okay, so this is why there's a lower point of entry because you literally can't put anything on it except just put it in a box. Exactly. There's like, you probably can't even print on it. Because like, what if the ink scrapes off?
Brad
Yeah. Even with even with fabric, there's something called the cracking tests where they take your fabric and they just rub it really hard on some paper and see if color comes off. And if that fails, then you whack fails, though. Yeah, okay, I get a lot of this can be addressed by working with, you know, a manufacturer but uh,
Azhelle
yeah, that already knows what they're doing. Yeah.
Brad
But I think even like with the paper thing, I think it's, it's created interesting opportunities where this is where you can look and say, Okay, here's something that I think babies would love, you know, parents, they don't face regulations. So they give kids you know, newspaper to crumble up. And they, they give them pots and pans. You know, none of these things can are subject to the same testing as the toys you're trying to sell. But you can still observe and say, okay, they kids want to play with paper. Parents want paper for their kids, but we can't do it by law.
Azhelle
So what about cardboard? Like, technically?
Brad
Yeah, if it's thick enough, I've seen you know,
Azhelle
they can't bite
Brad
Yeah, that's why you see board books,
Azhelle
Right? Yeah, with a fabric inside. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's real thick, though. Oh, my gosh, wow,
Brad
there have been some creative solutions. Like I forget the name of the company. But they made books that felt like paper, but they were actually made of Tyvek, which it can't tear. So it's using construction, it's used to like, put on the outside of homes. So you'll see it as it comes to being built. But it's it's a very durable material. But it feels kind of like paper gives you that paper like experience, but you can't rip it. And you can you can beat it up all day. And that became a whole company. All they did was make books out of Tyvek. And and so suddenly, it's safe for babies.
Azhelle
Did they patent it? That idea?
Brad
I don't know. They if they could they should have for sure.
Azhelle
So with arts and crafts, for example, you got to label everything as TMD 4236? I think it is, do you have a label for baby products,
Brad
I don't think there's an asdm label, if you want to sell in Europe, you have the CE mark, which, you know has to be tested a certain criteria, I would encourage unless you live in Europe, and are really only thinking about selling product there, I would recommend you don't start there. Because you'll hit you'll hit a whole other level of regulations. A lot of it is voluntary compliance and risk, you know, companies managing risk, there's not like one label or certification that you you put on there. And part of it is because the requirements are set so that you really can't have warnings, or else it's not a baby product. A lot of people look at baby toys differently. And you know, think how does anything get made?
Azhelle
No, for sure. And you look at them, you're like, Oh, that's why they're all so simple and one color because they're just injection molded. So you're not painting anything and nothing gets wrapped up on paper.
Brad
Exactly. So these are the constraints that you know either can leave you curled up in a corner crying or and kind of motivate you to say these are interesting set of problems. How can I work with this. And that's basically what the first chunk of my career was was spent doing was find creative ways to still do whatever we want to do. Don't let any of this change what we want to do, but we just have to be very creative about how we deliver it because it has to meet all these crazy requirements.
Azhelle
So okay, I want to go real quick into marketing the baby product in earlier you said the messaging is different now that you're working on four to six. You're really looking What the kids want. Whereas when you worked on baby, you were looking at what the parents want and what they're into. So just talking about messaging, what advice would you give somebody developing a baby product? from a marketing perspective? What works? What just doesn't work?
Brad
Well, I think what works when it's applicable is thinking about how a toy can also be a solution for some problem in parents lives. It doesn't have to be a big fix all panacea for all the problems in their world. But if you can focus on one nuisance in their life, one pain point, yeah, and this toy is not, as I said, just a piece of junk that ends up taking space in their diaper bag, you know, so anything that provides the plate value, and the developmental value for the baby, but maybe add some benefit for the parents. So you know, maybe it's something that clips on to your car seat carrier, so that it's not falling on the floor, or something that's easier to clean, you know, that you can just hose off, you know, in the sink and be done. Or you see some products that are dishwasher safe, you know, they can just throw them in the dishwasher and clean them off to
Azhelle
maybe focus on ease and need
Brad
Exactly, yes.
Azhelle
What do you think that parents need to see to trust a new baby brand? I know, you said that brands don't seem to matter too much. But do you think that on some level, they're thinking about safety, and they want to go with brands that they know and trust or? You
Brad
Yeah, I think that when there's a brand big enough to know and trust, that can be the case. But I think it'd be walked down the the toy aisle, especially anyone who's you know, been thinking about doing toy for a while, and they have their mind set and what a toy company is you walk down that aisle and say, I haven't heard of any of these people, except for Fisher Price. You know, there are brands that come and go, it's not always a fair comparison, because sometimes I think parents see they innately trust, something that they see in a major retailer, you know, that they walk in, and they say, well, target wouldn't be selling me these products if they weren't safe. You know, that's not entirely true. You know, they would never intentionally do it, but they they don't have, you know, not every retailer has requirements. And they certainly don't do the testing themselves. But
Azhelle
every retailers like Toys R Us was Yeah, right. Where all of your warning?
Brad
Exactly. I think parents are able to develop trust for individual products that come out, you know, certainly they're looking for reassurance around safety, safety, in terms of a lot of tests we talked about, but also, you know, chemical testing is big, I think it's really important to kind of observe your customer, whether it's online, you know, what's going on in discussion boards, what's going on in blogs, what are influencers kind of driving into the minds of parents, because, I mean, that's where some of the requirements that almost were invented by parents, and one of those being BPA. So a lot of people know about BPA free and you know, as big and water bottles, you know, then it kind of moved into baby bottles, because of course, we can't have this BPA thing, if you ask most parents would BPA is they have no idea. They just know that it's bad. And even though testing is inconclusive, and regulations are in place to already keep it at safe levels, it was actually the parents and the push and the demand that drove to eliminating BPA from products. So you kind of had to catch the wave of the sentiment of parents to know that was something that would kind of draw them to your product and and make them trust you. But you know, I mentioned influencers. And that's that's something that you see a lot of influencers and people who parents have put their trust in, start recognizing your product that can help a lot, right. versus traditional advertising, that's actually more impactful because they've already looked at that person as someone who you can trust. Yeah, because because I think they just don't, it's a confusing time to have a baby. And they're just looking for just a glimmer of hope. Yeah, so that that can help a lot
Azhelle
to close out just the baby portion, because I have a couple of questions just in regards to your current position that I want to close out with, but to close out our baby conversation, will you give us three golden rules of design to follow when designing baby products?
Brad
Sure, I have a lot. You know, one one actually came from a coworker and he had just like a piece of paper with this written in Sharpie on it, and just said, Be the baby be be the baby. It's so true. And so many times I see designs for baby products done in a way that is primarily focused on how can we market this to the parent what makes it look good and a photograph on the front of packaging? You know, I saw this so much on on Play gyms, which are you know, it's like a fabric mat and some bars that hang over the child so that they can lay on their back and look up and play. But you'd see toys designed that are facing the camera and the baby's just looking up the rear end of this toy. And when it's a simple thought, like if you were to lay down on the floor and look up, what would you want to see you would want those angled towards us so you can see them and, and reach them. So you know i think that's that's important is to step into the tiny little shoes of your customers.
Azhelle
Number two?
Brad
number two, I think is to recognize and embrace the insane growth that happens for kids during this period. You know, kids go from being practically a blind lump of dough to a walking, babbling grabbing creature within 12 months or less a lot of times, wow. Yeah. And so thinking about how can your product your toy or any baby product really, you know, evolve and keep up with that child as they grow? Oh,
Azhelle
that's a good one. Like that.
Brad
And then, you know, I would say
Azhelle
this number three is number three?
Brad
Yeah. Okay. All right. That's a recognized recognize the reality that and I kind of talked about this a little bit already, but recognize the reality that a baby toy, if not designed, well can just be another inconvenience in an already hectic life.
Azhelle
And the parents like that one a lot. Yeah.
Brad
And you don't want to be that, that one more barrier for them.
Azhelle
Yeah, you want to make mom's life harder? Is that
Brad
Yeah, really is and a lot of things. A lot of things do that. You know, so instead, think about how you can actually make a parent's life easier. Like can your toy actually make life easier, you know, whether it's a teether that doesn't fall on the floor, as I mentioned, toys that clip on or, or something like a play gym that folds up quickly, so you can get it out of the way like these are, these are solutions that you know, kind of the Trojan horses, they look like a toy and they're playful, but then you get at home and you realize, Oh, this is awesome. This just made my life a little bit easier.
Azhelle
I love that. Those are great, great golden rules. Thank you. Right. Okay, so to close out because so many of my listeners are toy inventors and entrepreneurs. I'm curious. In your current job at Lumistella working on Elf on the Shelf? Do you interact with many toy inventors? Like license IPS or inventions from them?
Brad
I actually did a lot more of that at Kids II. Surprisingly enough. Oh, interesting. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think Elf on the Shelf. Lumistella, we're in a unique place where even though a lot of people have known the elf for years, we're still kind of new in terms of this phase that we're in now, in creating this this world. What I will say is a lot of our invention is happening within our walls, which is exciting for someone inside the walls. But inbound licensing isn't quite as much a focus. However, outbound licensing is and has been for many years, you know, yes, we licensed to Mattel and Funko or we have in the past, but we also licensed to anyone who really has an interesting IP that kind of makes up with our brand in some way. That small company called my audio pet. You know, we licensed out to them last year. They're kind of a small startup for Bluetooth speakers. And
Azhelle
I think I had one of those penguin and again, a penguin
Brad
legit. Well, you need to go get one of our dogs.
Azhelle
It's not an elf?
Brad
It's actually our elf pets. So we have
Azhelle
I know the elf pet. Okay.
Brad
Yeah. But I spent a lot more time like I said kids to actually either meeting with inventors or reviewing inventions. I mean, even two of the company's brands, oh, ball, and taggies were companies that were formed by inventors.
Azhelle
Oh, yeah. taggies. So if somebody has a toy invention, there are a couple of people I know that have toy inventions that are listeners of my podcast? How would you suggest they get in touch with a baby company that let's say doesn't go to some of the inventor events? Like shy tag or some things at Toy Fair? How would you suggest they get in touch with some buddy like a Kids II?
Brad
A lot of it is, you know, one of my tricks that I use sometimes is I go on LinkedIn and search for that company. And I read the the job titles of different people who are on there.
Azhelle
Same thing I do too
Brad
who's who has licensing in their title or who has inventor relations in their title? I think a lot of the companies you'll find don't have a formal invention relations.
Azhelle
Yeah. You just go for the product development head? Or if it's a small enough company, the CMO?
Brad
Yeah, exactly. And I, you know, I never faulted anyone for coming, you know, for just kind of cold calling or emailing me based on some information. What I think too many inventors need to look out for is, if you're not absolutely sure that that is the point person, I really wouldn't recommend anyone sharing their invention until they at least have a good idea of are they talking to the right person? Yes. 100%? Yeah, if you have a patent, and you're fully protected, or something like that, that's different, but so many times that would just get Hi, I saw your information, and I'm sending you this. And here's my whole intention. And here's how it works. Like, you don't have to do ear muffs like I didn't see this. I don't you know, because it puts the company in a compromising position, which Yes, you know, puts it off on a bad foot.
Azhelle
Exactly, exactly.
Brad
Yeah. If your first introduction is simply Hi, I have a product or an invention that I think is a really great fit for your company. Who can I speak to about that? It's a lot easier to forward an email and, you know, get in touch with the right person. So yeah,
Azhelle
agreed. Okay, good. Yeah, that same thing I would recommend. Thank you so much. This has been an awesome interview. I think we've learned a lot I want to know where can people get in touch with you or learn more about what the Lumistella Company is up to? Like, what's your next big thing?
Brad
Well, for me, I think LinkedIn is easiest. You can find me on there and
Azhelle
give me your links. I'll put them in the show notes.
Brad
Yeah, I will do Yeah. Okay. And then in terms of what Lumistella is up to there's, there's a lot going on, you can go to lumistella.com. That is our new website.
Azhelle
I was gonna say that wasn't the website before.
Brad
It was not before it was. Our old company name was CCA and B.
Azhelle
That's what I thought Yes. Like, what is this? Oh, my gosh,
Brad
yeah. And no one. Even our owners have trouble remembering why it's called that. So you know, this name change was a big part of kind of our growth. So we've got that great website, I have to kind of do a pitch for our kids website, which is SantasNorthPole.com.
Azhelle
Oh, that's cute.
Brad
And it's just a great interactive website, almost like, kind of a VR experience of the North Pole that links to a lot of games and things like that. So yeah, that's a lot of fun.
Azhelle
It is so cool. Click the Sims.
Brad
Yeah, it kind of is. You get to be the elf.
Azhelle
Yeah, grab it, send me all those links. And then toy people, you can go to the show notes of this episode and grab them. This has been awesome. I, you know, I hope I would love you can talk to the owners and see if they're interested to come and talk about how they started Elf on the Shelf because I know the story, and it's very cool. So
Brad
it is it's, it's a testament to diligence and never giving up, though. Yeah. I'm sure that would be fantastic.
Azhelle
Yeah. Oh, I love this website. Oh, so cute. Well, Brad, thank you so much for coming on the show and all of the information you laid out about baby products. So helpful. You have no idea.
Brad
Well, thank you for having me. Yeah,
Azhelle
Yeah, it was a pleasure. If any of you listening to this podcast episode have been thinking about developing a baby product. I hope that this interview with Brad gave you an overview of what to expect when you venture into the world of baby. If you are working on a baby product idea, Brad summarized four main tests to keep at the top of your mind in your development process. And those product tests are one small parts test to the rattle gauge, three, the finger probe and for the push and pull test. Now while these aren't the only test you'll need to consider, these are definitely the top four that you're most likely to struggle with as you're developing your baby product. Now if you want to grab a quick reference toy safety checklist, head over to the toy coach comm You can also learn more about Brad and the Loomis stela company over at thetoycoach.com/52. As always toy people, thank you so much for joining me here today. I know there are plenty of podcasts out there so it really means the world to me that you tune into this one. If you love this podcast, and you haven't already left me a review, please do that right now. I absolutely love reading your positive reviews. When I get a ping on my phone. And it's a new review. I get a huge smile on my face. And it pushes me each and every week to keep providing valuable content and information for you to break into the toy industry. Well until next week. I'll see you later toy people.
Intro/Outro + Jingle
Thanks for listening to Making It in The Toy Industry podcast with Azhelle Wade, head over to thetoycoach.com for more information, tips and advice
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