Episode #95: Tips For Finding The Great Toy Or Game Concepts Within You with Christian Castro
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Do you have an idea for a game? Well, you’re in luck because to close out Hispanic Heritage Month, The Toy Coach sits down with Christian Castro, the Design Director of What Do You Meme? to talk about what makes a great game idea…GREAT! Together Azhelle and Christian compare parlor games and commercial games in an effort to identify the key characteristics of classic party, family, and kids’ games. From today’s episode you’ll learn the right and wrong way to use theming in your toy ideas, so that you’re truly innovating and not just masking an existing play pattern with a trendy theme.
If you absolutely love the insights into the toy industry you get from this podcast, but you never thought that YOU could come up with a toy or game idea, then you need to press play right now. We touch on how classic games like Candyland and brands like Spongebob weren’t invented by toy industry pro’s, they were created by everyday people outside of our incredible industry.
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Connect with Christian Castro on LinkedIn.
Listen to Episode #37 with Christian Castro, where he talks about the process of supporting your entrepreneurial significant other.
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[00:00:00] Azhelle Wade: You are listening to making it in the toy industry episode number 95.
[00:00:04] Hey there toy people, Azhelle Wade here and welcome back to another episode of the toy coach podcast, making it in the toy industry. This is a weekly podcast brought to you by thetoycoach.com. I am super excited for today's episode, but because to close out Hispanic heritage month, we have a super special guest on the podcast today. None other than my boyfriend, Christian Castro. Welcome to the show, Christian.
[00:00:44] Christian Castro: Thanks for having me. I'm a big fan.
[00:00:45] Azhelle Wade: Oh, okay. Our guest today, Christian Castro is the design director at what do you meme? Where he leads a team of fellow toy people in developing game products and packaging for the iconic brand. Christian is born and raised in Brooklyn, New York, and he studied illustration and toy design at the fashion institute of technology. And he's been working on the toy industry for eight years now, right? Eight years. And I have to say, just knowing him that Christian zone of toy genius is definitely games. In 2019, he won a taggy award for innovative arts and visuals of the year for the game, New Phone, who dis? Manufactured by what do you meme?
[00:01:34] If you've been a fan of the podcast for a while, then you may already know of Christian for my Instagram posts, that he is my supportive partner I'm so excited to have him on the podcast today to talk about uncovering creativity by being observant of the world around you. The things you see and interact with in everyday life. So today we are going to learn how you can find inspiration in unlikely places. And hopefully even if you've never thought of yourself as a toy or game person, you never thought you could come up with an idea. I'm hoping that you'll walk away from this episode feeling you are a toy person and maybe wanting to develop some of those ideas. Okay. Again, I'm going to say welcome to the show, Christian. Thanks for being here today.
[00:02:21] Christian Castro: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk and got a lot to say.
[00:02:24] Azhelle Wade: Do you have a lot to say?
[00:02:25] Christian Castro: I think so. Yeah. Hopefully useful things to say.
[00:02:27] Azhelle Wade: All right, Christian, I think I did a pretty good job in intro you, but why don't you introduce yourself to our listeners? Tell us a little bit about yourself.
[00:02:34] Christian Castro: Awesome. Well, as you mentioned, I've been in the industry for about eight years, but I would say. Long before that I've always been a creative the type of person who enjoys coming up with ideas and brainstorming ideas, especially with with a group of like-minded people. Whether I was studying illustration or working as like a freelance graphic designer or sales person, or now a product and package design director, I've always consider myself a creative.
[00:03:03] And I feel like coming up with solutions to problems and coming up with concepts and ideas has always been what I love doing more than anything else. So I think that's what I would love to talk about today. And I think that's a big part of who I am as a person. And hopefully what I say today will be applicable, not just to gain people, not just to toy people, but anyone in any creative field. I think this will be applicable to them because I also am inspired by people from different creative fields as well.
[00:03:32] Azhelle Wade: So I did hear you say that even when you were a sales person, you felt like a creative. And people are like what? Christian's not a sales person, if they know you at all. So let's roll back. What was your first foray into the toy industry? Let's start there.
[00:03:45] Christian Castro: Technically, during my time at college, I did have a part-time job at FAO Schwartz, the toy store here in New York city. At the time I was working as a toy demonstrate. and a toy soldier. So part of the time I would like, as it sounds demonstrate toys, I would show parents and kids in any type of customer, how to play with a toy or a game. And I would just honestly just sell it to them. Usually it was, I would show him more than I would tell. So I would get the child's hands on the toy would get the toy in the child's hand And then yeah, convince them to buy the total.
[00:04:21] And it was a lot of fun. I would get paid to play with toys. And the other half the time I was a toy soldier, for anyone who has never been to fAO Schwarz, it's a very touristy yet very fun and magical place to go to. So they would have people dress up in a toy soldier costume with a big red jacket a giant black hat on top of my head. And I would just take pictures with tourists outside and greet people and say hi, and just hang out with people. You know, there was a lot.
[00:04:47] Azhelle Wade: So like, do you remember from those early days trying to sell products to kids, and I know you even met some celebrities and sold them products too. But do you remember any just making no of any key takeaways like whether it was sales tactics that you notice worked well or methods of demonstrating toys that you notice worked well, or even just design aspects of toys that kids were really gravitating to. Do you remember anything like sticking out in your mind from back then?
[00:05:17] Christian Castro: Whoa, we had a lot of thorough training for that job. Believe it or not, even though it is mostly just playing with toys and convincing people to buy the toys. There were certain rules that they had. a thing. it was like the three or four rules of demo. I'm not sure if I remember all of them, but off the top of my head, I definitely remember one of the rules was get the toy in the child's hand. I guess it's just a matter of showing over telling, right? If someone sees a toy, that's one thing.
[00:05:46] But if someone like holds it and interacts with it, they are 10 times more engaged than watching you hold it and interact with it. So that I realized like right off the bat, like you could see the difference in engagement, whether it's with a child or a parents or anyone for that matter that you're trying to sell the toy to. And I think that's applicable now working professionally where I pitch ideas all the time to my superiors, or even when I'm in a job interview, honestly, I feel like I try to get the person interviewing me or whoever I'm interacting with.
[00:06:19] I want them to be as engaged as possible. And I know that's something that unfortunately we have lost with the virtual interactions that we have nowadays. But if you're ever in a meeting like that, I feel like if there's any type of physical component, whether it's a game idea or a prototype that you're pitching, or even honestly, if it's just your physical resume or portfolio, just like handing something over to another person and getting some sort of physical interaction, I think is something that I've always taken with me. And that was one of the rules of demo.
[00:06:47] Azhelle Wade: I'm sorry. Recap. So the rule one was just get it in their
[00:06:50] Christian Castro: Yes. Get the toys in the child's hand. And then another one is they must hear you before they see you. Interesting. Was a very loud toy store, very crowded. So yeah, it's kind of hard to get a child's attention when there's much visual stimulation going on around them. So sometimes you'd have to yell, scream, jump around. If there was a musical toy, you have to make some music, try to dance, whatever you need to do to get anyone's attention. So it become, combined that with, get the child's hands on the toy, then usually was a recipe for success.
[00:07:22] Azhelle Wade: Did they ever tell you why or it was just because the toy store was so big that they had to hear you before they saw you?
[00:07:28] Christian Castro: think it's just, we're trying to, I guess, tackle it from all angles, stimulate all the senses. want to hear you. They want to see you. They want to feel the toy. They want hear the toy.
[00:07:38] Azhelle Wade: What was the third one?
[00:07:40] Christian Castro: I think we just like have fun or something like very playful and fun, like fun, fun, fun. As opposed to like sell, sell, sell. It was just have fun.
[00:07:47] Azhelle Wade: Okay. Okay. All right. I don't know if this was one of the four, but this is something that you, when you first showed me your favorite game ever. You said you let me win.
[00:07:56] Christian Castro: Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. This was not a rule they tardus but something I picked up I guess, similar to answer your question you further. Something I picked up from my experience is I noticed at the time I thought it was just for children, but this definitely applies to adults, if not more so than kids, but kids do not like losing, honestly, nobody likes losing, but when it comes to selling themselves, want to just like, let them win just because you feel bad. Like you want to let them win the right amount. Like you want them to be competitive. You want them to feel like they earned it.
[00:08:30] So if you're playing a game and it's very close and it's going very back and forth and ultimately they win, then they feel good about themselves. And they're going to say, wow, I beat this guy. And I had a great time. What if I take this came home? And I beat my brother, I'd beat my sister. I'd beat my cousins, my parents, like you're already painting a picture with emotion. whereas if you beat them and they say, I just lost, what am I going to pay $20. So I can take this home and lose some nobody wants that feeling.
[00:08:56] Azhelle Wade: Yeah, no. Yeah. That was really smart. I remember thinking like, oh, I love this game. This game is great. Cause I won. And then I realized I was being let won.
[00:09:05] Christian Castro: I think the game you're referring to a spot Not to say it's my favorite game of all time. I do love spot it, but so many, there's definitely tons spot it is an amazing game. It goes by different names in europe. But yeah, I have played spot it with many people and I have noticed like a lot of people say, well, I don't have time to play then I'll say, oh, it takes 60 seconds to play and they'll play it. And they, if they want. they're like much more likely to play a second round. they lose, they'll say, oh no, I'm busy. I got to go. on the yeah. to play.
[00:09:33] Azhelle Wade: Okay. Okay. So you had all this experience from just working at a toy store. One of the biggest toy stores and interacting with all kinds of people from celebrities to everyday Joes. And then you started working in the toy industry. How did you get into the toy industry?
[00:09:48] Christian Castro: Well, originally my dream was to become a quote unquote artist. I don't know what that meant as most children don't, but I eventually found my way into the illustration program at the fashion Institute of technology. And there they did have the first and one of the only steel toy design programs in the United States as you know, better than anyone. So I eventually found my way into the toy designer department in FIT. And yeah, from there, I guess it was my life was a lot more streamlined once I had that template and roadmap of how to get my foot in the door as an entry level junior product designer in the toy industry was it was so niche, but I guess the nicheness really. helped me find my way there.
[00:10:33] So I, while at fit, I got an interview. at Nickelodeon and their consumer products division, working on the toy team. Yeah. And after I graduated, I just pretty much started. I eventually quit FAO Schwarz and then just started working as a toy designer, doing freelance work for anybody that would have me from Commonwealth toys. Fisher-Price I was in there in New York city office before it closed down for a little bit. I was at cardinal games, designing games and puzzles. I went to kurt adler for a hot second and designed some Christmas ornaments. And then eventually I got a full-time job at Commonwealth toy novelty, and I was there for a few years before What Do You Meme
[00:11:12] Azhelle Wade: I want to ask, do you find it hard to maintain your creativity while working in corporate? Or do you think it's easy while working in corporate and actually harder when you freelanced?
[00:11:25] Christian Castro: Good question. I always tend to think that creativity thrives with limitations. So when you are working in a corporate environment, each company kind of has their, set ways and how they want to do things or they, I mean, it's like, you always mentioned it's very trend based. So when you're coming up with a, a game or totally idea, of based off of a trend, I view that as like, here's your challenge and it's up to you to find a solution. And as I mentioned before, like that's always my favorite part of what I do, thinking of creative ways to solve a problem, or try to create a clever concept To pitch, whatever it is that needs to be pitched. So from that mentality, I honestly, I think it's about the same, whether it's corporate or freelance, because it's more about the company that you're working for or the problem you're trying to solve.
[00:12:12] Azhelle Wade: Yeah. So maybe it's actually easier because someone's coming to you when you work in corporate. And even when you work in freelance, someone comes to you with a specific problem to solve. And you're just, you're hyper-focused on that one problem. But where do you go to find your solutions?
[00:12:28] Christian Castro: That's true. Honestly, I was to piggyback off of what I just said. I find it more difficult if sometimes I just have free time and I'm like, oh, let me just think of a game concept on my free time. And then like, I have like no limitations and no problem to solve. It's just me sitting there with like an empty sketchbook. I find that a lot more difficult than when someone tells me, oh, like, unicorns are hot right now. but we need a unicorn card game or sometimes it it'd be harder. I think that would just be unstable unicorns that already exist. Nevermind.
[00:12:58] Azhelle Wade: So where do you go for your creativity? Where do you find creative? When you're not being led, when a company isn't telling you specifically what to look for. When do ideas just come to you? I mean, I've seen it so
[00:13:10] I but I'm just curious, like where does it come from?
[00:13:13] Christian Castro: It's to sound like a very cliche answer, but I get inspiration from everywhere, to be specific, I think a great example that a lot of people don't pick up on this, but I think it's a great way of viewing things. Like I get a lot of inspiration from standup comics.
[00:13:26] Azhelle Wade: Standup comics?
[00:13:27] Christian Castro: Yes. and I've told this to a few people and they always give me like a weird look. Like, what did you, what do you mean? You're not a comic and I'm not a comedian I'm not funny.
[00:13:34] Azhelle Wade: You like to watch a lot comedy shows.
[00:13:36] Christian Castro: I love a lot. of I'm always catching something on Netflix, but if you don't want to stand up comedians, what is their job? They observed the world. And then they make jokes based off of their experiences. So like how many comedians have talked about being on an airplane and having like an awkward, uncomfortable situation? That for the most part is very relatable, right?
[00:13:59] And I'm sure all of us have been in an airplane and like we're too close to the person in front of us and behind us and we feel awkward, but we're not comedians. So we don't think to take those experiences and create it in a story that's funny to listen to because it's not our job, it's not our goal, but it's the comedian's job. So they are hyper-aware of everything going on around them. They archived those experiences in their head and then they execute those ideas and that story and the platform that they have, which is comedy. Right?
[00:14:28] So for us as toy and game people, our platform is obviously towing games. So let's say we go through an experience such as Airplanes, for example, maybe instead of turning that experience into a one hour comedy special on Netflix, we could take that experience and turn it into some sort of game or toy idea that stand from that set experience true. So maybe airplane is a bad example, but.
[00:14:57] Azhelle Wade: Give me an example.
[00:14:58] Christian Castro: what I'm trying to say, I guess is back to the comedy thing is what I'm trying to say is everyone okay? a funny joke inside of them or a funny story, or at least an interesting story, but comedians are just funny, whereas the average person is not. So if you take that and apply it to toy and games, I strongly believe that everyone has a great toy or game idea inside of them. They just don't know to be observant of it. And to execute that observation into the platform that is toys and games.
[00:15:28] So if you think of it, this way, like crazy eights is a game that has been around forever, but someone made the effort to observe crazy eights and tweak it and make the game UNO right now. when it was celebrating its 50th anniversary. So it's like fresh in my mind right now. Right? Like when I was just crazy eights. And if you show it to anyone older than a certain age who remembers playing crazy eights before 1971, they'll say, oh, this who is just a copy of crazy eights, but for the rest of us, we just know uNO.
[00:16:00] Like I've played UNO a hundred times more than I've ever played crazy eights, if that makes sense. So if you think of it from a, the point of view of a parlor game. Parlor game, for those of you who don't know, it's just like an everyday game that you can create from anything. It's not like a commercial game. It's just like something you play with a deck of cards or at camp with a ball, like any game, you invent is a parlor game. Very rough definition. Please don't google it. You might find something different.
[00:16:27] Azhelle Wade: So why I'm curious, are there any other parlor games that have been adapted into successful game products? Like crazy eights was adapted into UNO?
[00:16:39] Christian Castro: Oh yeah, there definitely are. And I'm sure there are tons more than we can name or identify. Like everything is influenced by something else. So I mean, I don't know, every single person who's designed every single toy game, but I I definitely see similarities in some commercial products that remind me of existing ideas or themes or parlor games to your point. Like just recently I saw Hasbro released the, Not Your Ma's Jong, I think, which is just a play off of Mahjong that a couple invented. And I I'm assuming licensed tasks girl. So like Mahjong has been around for, I would assume centuries. So in 2021, they're licensing, a game based off of a game that's been around forever.
[00:17:23] Azhelle Wade: I'm curious. Like, what do you think that it is? Cause you know, I I've had students come to me and say, oh, I have this innovation on, let's say like basketball and I don't know. What do you think it is that makes a re-imagined parlor game special enough that it can be a new, like a new classic. I guess this is hard for us to answer because we don't really know crazy eights compare it to UNO, but like, I'm wondering, like, what is it about like how they adapted UNO from crazy eights that made the new products so like such its own brand, its own. Like, why is it so strong?
[00:18:03] Christian Castro: I guess that's where a great marketing plan comes into play.
[00:18:07] Azhelle Wade: Do you think it's marketing?
[00:18:08] Christian Castro: 'cause they, I I know, at least in our generation, UNO is known as that game. That like you fight over, like in a good way. It's like you, you lose friendships over uNO and it's so easy to make house rules that I think that's definitely where you could tell the origins of its parlor game nature, where the house rules definitely apply because you can play it in so many which ways. And I think branding and the design helps a lot with the colors and and the reverse, I guess, crazy eights. I don't remember if crazy eights has like a reverse or skip. If don't know how to play probably and use up all your cards. And so you run out ultimately, and I guess the catch phrase, UNO that doesn't exist in crazy eights. When you have one card, you don't yell out uNO and crazy eights.
[00:18:48] Azhelle Wade: Are there other, actually, no, I do know there are others. Cause there are a couple of games that your family plays that you've often told me could be adapted. And then we were traveling to Spain and we actually saw what was that? Parker?
[00:18:59] Christian Castro: Yeah. Parcheesi or parker. I guess a good point to make is that every country, every city has some sort of game that either originated In that area or has been adapted even the slightest bit to make it applicable to that culture or that region. So like, yes, the Chinese play Mahjong and Colombians playbook. guests and mexicans play Loteria and Koreans play like, everyone has their own game. Everyone has something like everyone listening to this right now, I'm sure it has an amazing game idea that they can adapt based off of an existing game that they've been playing since they were a child.
[00:19:38] Azhelle Wade: They might even have a game that actually just be something that their family made up, but it's become a family tradition. What if somebody has a parlor game that they love, maybe it's a parlor game, these to play as kids and they haven't seen in the market, or if they have a family tradition game that they've kind of like made up that they play. How would you know whether an idea is good enough to continue? Pursuing and developing, or just starting to develop into maybe a real product to either manufacture themselves or pitch to a company. Like what do you meme?
[00:20:12] Christian Castro: Honestly, guess it's similar to like modern art. They say modern art is I could have done that, but I didn't. I feel like when I see cause like, well, modern art. It's like people like make fun of it or contemporary art, I guess could say like, oh, I could have done that, but I and then if you see like a bunch of paint on a white canvas and it's selling for like a million dollars to like, I could have done that. Like, yeah. But you didn't do that. So when I see like a very simple, but extremely clever game idea, I think like, ah, I could have done that, but I didn't. And for me, that's like a compliment to the game adventure because they thought of something so clever that I'm a little bit jealous that
[00:20:45] I didn't think of. So I would to answer your question that I think that's a good rule of thumb. If you see something that's so fun and so clever, like the first one should be to make sure no one has already done that. And if in your research you realize there is nothing like this simple yet very fun concept out on the market, then that's, that might be a good sign to at least start developing it, to maybe start asking around to at least start play, testing it with other people and then like actually designing it and selling it thoroughly.
[00:21:14] Azhelle Wade: What do you think what you would do if it's maybe not in the market currently, but it was something that was made in the market in the past?
[00:21:21] Christian Castro: Ooh, that's a good question in terms of what they was already on sale and it just phased
[00:21:25] Azhelle Wade: maybe like five years ago it was sold and it just, you don't know why, like, I mean, my first thought is to think, like maybe try to recomment and figure out why or looking at the history of the world and see if maybe it just didn't fit into society at that time. But what do you think?
[00:21:41] Christian Castro: Well, I think five years may not be enough time if it's like much older, like, oh, this was popular in the eighties or nineties. I think trends and go out style. kids now don't remember anything from the nineties cause they weren't there obviously. So I think you could definitely bring something back. Nostalgia is huge, especially right now. And in terms of something recently, that just didn't work. I think whether it's your game or someone else's game, I think it's it's always a good rule of thumb to look at why something worked, but also why something didn't work.
[00:22:11] I think it's very easy and very common for everyone to take something that's a huge hit and try to figure out why is this popular wire? Why is everyone gravitating towards this? And then you try to make your own version or even copy it. And in many cases I've noticed. But I think people should maybe focus on why something doesn't work, especially if it had high expectations why it did not work. Yeah.
[00:22:33] Azhelle Wade: Well, okay. But I want to actually go back to my other question because my other question was if somebody has a parlor game that they think would make a good mass market product, like, what kind of questions do you ask yourself when deciding to create a game, to know if it's really worth your time, your company's time to develop? Like what kind of questions does somebody ask themselves before they take this idea anywhere?
[00:22:57] Christian Castro: good rule of thumb to take into consideration is there's pros and cons, I guess, to developing game concept based off of a parlor game or any sort of existing play pattern. The pros of, this is obviously this game has been played for years, for generations, for centuries. So clearly it's fun. Clearly it resonates with some broad audience. so that off the bat is already a huge selling point, right? A lot of people are afraid of saying, oh, Tag meets, whatever, whatever, like that's a good thing. Cause people, especially like buyers and salespeople, they know tag is fun. So like you don't want to reinvent the wheel. You're going to take something that, you know, people will resonate with. that's the pro.
[00:23:36] The con would be like, if this game I can play with a deck of cards, why do I need to buy this new company's version of set game? right? You need to reinvent it just enough where people feel that they need to purchase it in order to be. it Honestly, like I said, I don't know what UNO did so rights That people decide to pay like $20 for an UNO card game when they could just buy a deck of cards at the 99 cent store and play at the same. Yeah. There's something to it. There's like a bit of an extra rule There's a branding elements. Like the visual, Yeah. the visual
[00:24:09] Azhelle Wade: Yeah. I think it makes it, seems simple. I wonder if it was like the simplification of it. Idon't know we really need to learn how to play crazy eights.
[00:24:16] Christian Castro: Something I was telling myself as like, can, can you put this in a box? Like when you're selling a game, it's like, there should be a contents list of what you need to include in the game. Like, does it come with dice? Do you need dice? Do you need a timer? Do you need cards? Do people need to write something. If it's something funny, that you have to supply the person with a prompt or the trivia questions, things like that. Like what can you provide for the customer? Why are they paying you their hard-earned money to purchase this game based off of something that they could play on their own based off of something that they already have been playing on their own long before you decided to put it in a box. So you have to be very conscious of what exactly are you putting in that box.
[00:24:55] Azhelle Wade: This has got me actually thinking about your earlier coloque way of being creative. And I forgot to ask you, I wanted to ask you if you had any examples of a time you analyzed or observed the world around you in the way that you were saying a comedian would observe his world to create a skit that you've observed your world to create a toy or a game idea.
[00:25:21] Christian Castro: Yeah, I think, I mean, this isn't a secret, but most toy and game companies are very observant of trends going on in social media. So if you're a newbie to the industry that may not be obvious to you. So like take TOK and Instagram are a gold mine when it comes to, especially for games because people are already, like I said, playing parlor games and they don't even know they're doing it. They're just calling it challenges or take top challenge, like, oh, tick, top challenge, tape this plastic cup on your head and throw ping pong balls at it like that. That's a game right there.
[00:25:53] Azhelle Wade: You know, when we were first in quarantine, do you remember? I'd like opened the tick-tock account, like really early in quarantine and then the very first or second video was like you being like new quarantine drinking game. And it was like ice.
[00:26:09] Christian Castro: Oh, yeah, we were so bored. I took different juices from our fridge. I put it in the ice tray and then it froze them and then I labeled them ABCD. and then it was more like a taste and or like.
[00:26:20] Azhelle Wade: You them by numbers then you roll the dice then that told you what you had to drink. And that honestly, even to this day, I think that was my most watched tik TOK. I'm like 3000 views. I said a lot I know.
[00:26:37] Christian Castro: People, love playing games. And now we're in the day and age, where people love watching other people play games or do anything honestly, on the internet.
[00:26:45] Azhelle Wade: Yeah. Yeah. They love that. So.
[00:26:48] Christian Castro: I Digress, but yeah, we're all we know. Someone could have seen our video of us freezing juices and guessers juices, which and yeah we've had a game idea of inspiring. us. It's a drinking game. It could be. if you make a game out that please send us royalties. but yeah. I challenge everyone to download tik tok. Even if you feel some sort of way about, TIK TOK like, oh, I'm not a teenager I shouldn't be on tik tok. Tik tok is, is a goldmine.
[00:27:14] Azhelle Wade: You don't even have one.
[00:27:15] Christian Castro: Don't have a Tik TOK, but I, like I said, Instagram reels are pretty much tik tok. Yeah Yeah are. that's trickles down from tik tok.
[00:27:22] Azhelle Wade: Hold on. Do you have an example? I'm almost thinking of like, new phone who dis? Might've been an example of you taking the world around you and applying it to a product just because of, tell that story. Cause I remember the story of how that package came to life. You said you were texting back and forth with.
[00:27:38] Christian Castro: Oh yeah. Was one of my colleagues in what do you meme?, Isabelle. She had the concept for a cell phone themed judges choice game. So what do you mean? is it judges choice game. You submit a caption, you compare it to a photo and the judge chooses their favorite pairing. So, new phone with this Would be something along those lines. I was supposed to design a cell phone theme card, and Isabel had written some captions cause she was in charge of writing content.
[00:28:04] And then she just texted me an idea she had it for a caption. And then as I was staring at my phone at her text message, I realized like this, this is the card design right now. I'm holding it in my hand, in the a cell phone. So I just took a screenshot of her text message. And I put it on photoshop and I just like just cut it out in the shape of a caption card, like a poker size category card. And then that was the card design.
[00:28:28] Let's say you're a complete newbie and you don't know anything about the toy industry. I would so instead of looking into the toy industry for inspiration, I think it would be better to just look within your own world. Like if you are a scientist that has nothing to do with toys, you still pass the time. Somehow you might have scientists colleagues that do something to pass the time during their breaks, during their lunch, whether it's with each other, with their own friends outside of.
[00:28:55] Azhelle Wade: Do something. What do you mean by that?
[00:28:56] Christian Castro: Do something as what do you do for fun? like, science is your job, but it's not your entire life. But even when you are at work, whatever that may be at the lab, I don't know. I'm not a scientist but if you're in the lab, you might be mixing chemicals. Scientists, you have hobbies, you pass the time you crack jokes. There is something in there that you do during your job. That is not always science for. And that might spark an idea. It could spark, I feel like sciences would be the best fit like arts and crafts toys. They probably have idea of creating something.
[00:29:26] Azhelle Wade: Okay. So I want to talk to you about party games. Family games. Who've worked in games for now four years. Well, you've worked with, what do you mean for four years? And are you doing games before that? So what do you think makes a good party game?
[00:29:40] Christian Castro: I've had a few conversations with other party game designers and what is, does it even mean to be a party game? What classifies party game? Which is something that can be argued many times over. But for me, at least I think a party game has to be able to be played with that. least three people. because it was just two people playing on it and that's a lame party in my opinion. And it has to be simple enough where you're not overwhelmed by the idea of playing it. I mean, what's simple It is very subjective, of course, but for me, I think if you can learn it in like less than two minutes, that's a good, good amount of time. And then how long you play it. I think that doesn't matter. And it should be interactive. I think social something that leads to either entertainment or some sort of social conversation to be had.
[00:30:30] Azhelle Wade: And what do you think makes a good family game?
[00:30:32] Christian Castro: A lot of people think family games are just like, oh, it's kid friendly, but I don't think that that's the case that yes, it might be a family game, but a great family game is something that kids and adults can enjoy playing alone or with each other. So a great family game. Some kids can play by themselves Or parents can play by themselves without their kids, but a great one. Like they can play all of the above.
[00:30:58] Azhelle Wade: Yeah. Like candy land. don't know if that would count.
[00:31:02] Christian Castro: I don't think candy land is even classified as a family, uses a kid's game because is a difference between kids game and family
[00:31:07] Azhelle Wade: So what's the difference between kids' game and family game?
[00:31:09] Christian Castro: Kids game is a game that is targeted specifically for kids to play. I think candy. designed for kids to be able to play by themselves. So I wouldn't consider that a family game, but I dunno, has broken, might disagree. I don't know.
[00:31:22] Azhelle Wade: What do you think actually makes a game bad? And you might remember this from like your days of doing like demos, maybe toys or games. I'm curious what features that you've seen added to games, sorta toys that you're like, oh, this is actually kind of ruining the experience and making kids not like it.
[00:31:38] Christian Castro: You have to know your market. I had one experience selling a party game actually at FAO Schwarz That was very content driven. This was years before I was at what do you meme. Funny enough, because now a lot of our games are very content driven by content, I mean, just like written words, play a huge part in the, in the gameplay. FAO Schwarz was, as I mentioned, very touristy. So there was a lot of customers where English wasn't their first language. Sometimes they didn't speak English at all. So to hand them a card that is completely in English, it's not going to resonate with them. They're not gonna understand the humor, not to say that that game wasn't fun or good or even great.
[00:32:14] It wasn't for that audience. That being said, like, I do love games that are universal and, and the audience appeal in terms of language, like anything, picture based spotted as a perfect example, you can play that with anyone of any, any culture who speaks any light. or anyone who doesn't speak any language, honestly, could, could still play spotty. For me, that would be a great game, I guess, especially coming from a, a bilingual family where not everyone speaks english or even spanish. Yeah. Like if you have some physical element, I think I love physical component games also.
[00:32:51] Azhelle Wade: But what makes a game bad or boring?
[00:32:53] Christian Castro: I guess, replay value. If you don't want to play it more than once.
[00:32:57] Azhelle Wade: No. I mean, like what features? What do you think when a game has, I guess, have you noticed any repetition, any like repeating qualities in games that don't do well? Like too complicated, too many rules or too many plastic pieces. Not enough plastic pieces, like you were saying, like too many words.
[00:33:17] Christian Castro: Yeah. are games where I feel manufacturers are relying too much on the theme and not enough on the game play. if they say like, oh, dragons are trending, let's make a random dragon game and just rush it out the door. So it can be on target shelves by the holidays. And then you could tell when a play pattern isn't well thought out, right? you could tell it wasn't played tested enough, but they were just relying said theme or trend cause trend is important, but you also want it to be fun. If you can combine the two, then that's like a home run.
[00:33:50] Azhelle Wade: Yeah. They're like, I feel like this is something I have a hard time teaching my students too. It's like they might come up with a really great theme for a game, but a theme is not a play pattern, but there are times where your theme can. Where your theme can enhance the play pattern in a way that the play pattern isn't the same without the theme. And that's like innovation, that's real innovation. But when it's just like a skin, like if it's like this cup is blue and then you make it like, like decorate it, like a castle, and then it's just a blue castle. Like that's not, that's nothing innovative, but if you turn it on its side, I don't know. And cut a hole in the back and turn it into a megaphone, then it has a whole other function. Yeah. I don't know. I struggled. The way to explain theming versus play pattern.
[00:34:41] Christian Castro: I will also say a great game play pattern can be adapted to different themes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you look at one of the, like don't step on it, for example, it's just a game with poop that you would have to try not to step on the poop, but they've reinvented that so many times. with Unicorn poop or dog poop or whatever, llama poop, whatever animal is trending. So that, in itself means focused on a play pattern and they said, yes, like poop is, might be trending right now and may not be trending five years from now. But the play pattern is still fun. The act of you're not trying to step on something is just gives you that like adrenaline, I guess, for a child to want to avoid.
[00:35:22] Azhelle Wade: Yeah. I guess poop could be a great example because like, let's say a poop shaped, I don't know, sequined pillows. Is kind of a theme is like applying a theme, like using the trend of poop and saying, we're just going to make this poop emoji into a pillow and that's going to be the whole product, but turn doing a game where it's not theming is when you say, what are the characteristics of poop, right. And it's like, oh, it's gross. It's smelly. And what do you want to do with poop? Like, you don't want to touch it until like creating a game around that. Is, I think how you come over the hump of theming, like thinking about the characteristics of the theme, like
[00:36:07] Christian Castro: Yeah. because you just described that makes a lot more sense than say, like just making a card game and like slapping poop emojis on there saying it's a poop game. Like it has not.
[00:36:16] Azhelle Wade: Or just making poop shape cards and out of let's say like taking UNO and poop, making it poop, shaped cars versus saying like, what is the situation with poop? It's gross, it's smelly, it's something you don't want to touch and blah, blah, blah. And then making a game around that. That's, that's smart. And like, you could do it with like unicorns, right? Like what are unicorns, they're sparkly and imaginary. And maybe you make a game around that. Those characteristics.
[00:36:40] Christian Castro: It is a lot of convo about poop.
[00:36:42] Azhelle Wade: Okay. Well, I tried to save it with unicorns, so I hope that helped. What was the last game that you saw that made you say, oh man, why didn't I come up with that? Why didn't I think of that?
[00:36:56] Christian Castro: Well, I mean, I, I go to toy store is a lot with you and good target whenever we're buying anything in target or Walmart, I, can pass by the game. mile. just doesn't work. Well, people are up to.
[00:37:07] Azhelle Wade: We try to leave.
[00:37:09] Christian Castro: We try to leave it doesn't always work. I don't know. I saw, I think this is more a license, I ever regret not working with, but there was like a Netflix theme game, I think spin master made it. And it would just like, giant Red N the Netflix logo on the box. And it just like stood out to me so much because it's like, oh, it pique my interest. Obviously I watch Netflix, like most millennials do. So I just pick up the box almost immediately. and then I turned it around. I think Galactic's needs made that game, shout out to collect six needs. And we just like a simple play pattern where you're kind of making your own TV show ideas like combining different cards. And they're all like Netflix shows that are fan favorites. Yeah. It was simple. Why didn't I think of that. I guess is very, not very dependent under licensed, but the netflix licensed definitely helps.
[00:37:56] Azhelle Wade: Well, I mean, I think it's also, like you said, like you're working with what's in front of you, what you're observing every day. And one of their games is already that play pattern. Right. They already had a product like that. That just was a perfect fit for that brand. And that's just what they saw every day. Had someone come to you and said, Hey Christian, we need a solution for a Netflix game. You'd be like, oh, got it. You know, and that would have started the whole.
[00:38:18] Christian Castro: Of course. Yeah. Oh, another great example of what I wish I would've thought of happy salmon.
[00:38:23] Azhelle Wade: Oh really?
[00:38:23] Christian Castro: It's an amazing yet like Ken grill. No, it's just so fun and it physical game, but it, and it forces you to interact with other players, like scratches, everything off the checklist of what makes it a great party game.
[00:38:36] Azhelle Wade: It's very simple. I wonder what that game was inspired by.
[00:38:40] Christian Castro: I don't know. That's a good question.
[00:38:42] Azhelle Wade: Yeah. That almost seems like that could have been inspired by a family tradition or something coming home from work and high fives something like it seems, or like a classroom game. Any teachers out there games you play with your children may be the next happy if you don't know what that is, go on Amazon and find happy salmon.
[00:39:03] Christian Castro: Yeah. Teachers probably be the best because they have a focus group, like five days a week.
[00:39:08] Azhelle Wade: Built-in focus group. Okay. So Christian, the last question I want to ask of you today is why do you think toy companies need ideas from outside inventors? Or do you think they need ideas from outside inventors?
[00:39:20] Christian Castro: Of course yeah. You tend to work in a bubble to a certain extent if you just keep bouncing ideas off the same people. So as my point earlier on like every one Has a great game idea inside of them or a toy idea inside of them. And they may not know it, but eventually if, and when they do figure it out, that idea that they thought of is unique to them. And no one, in these big toy companies are going to have the same exact idea that you do.
[00:39:47] So why would any company not want to have access to that amazing idea? iconic toys and games and iPS are usually created by people outside of set industry. Like SpongeBob was created by a Marine biologist, not by an executive in nickelodeon who had been working there for 10, 20 years. Right? Yeah. Candyland was not created by someone already working for Milton Bradley for many years. It was created by what under, I mean, I've found she's a school teacher, but I have seen some things that said she was nurse, but I can't find those sources.
[00:40:20] So like executives and employees already working for toy game companies can come up with ideas and great ideas, but just from what I've noticed, some of the most iconic toy and game ideas come from people outside of the industry we just happened to think of an idea based off of them being observant of the world around them and using those observations to create the said toy or game concept.
[00:40:44] Azhelle Wade: Yeah. And I think, I mean, I would love it. I mean, I remember struggling with that working at a toy company, feeling like I always had to be the person coming up with the ideas and seeing them through. But then eventually when I got to the phase of like, no, I can, you know, my team can come up with ideas and I can be responsible for making sure that they are getting finished the most affordable way and the smartest way. And that they're the most marketable products. I don't know. I just, I remember struggling with that, but I think that our industry would really benefit if toy companies and people working at toy companies, don't have to feel the pressure to be everything right. And they can let inventors invent, and then they can finish and tweak and perfect those inventions.
[00:41:26] Christian Castro: Honestly, as, as someone who has worked with inventors or on an outside designers, whatever you want to call it, anyone pitching a game to the company I happen to be working for at the moment. We, I can speak for most people, I would say we view it as you're providing us, not just an idea, but a service it's like a luxury. We have to go through a lot of work to like come up with an idea. Yes. But also play tested and tweak it and refine it over and over again. But if we know that someone else has already done that for us and have already done the legwork and I've already played, tested it with their kids or their friend's kids or their own friends.
[00:42:00] Depending on the age group, like that's a service that they're providing for us along the concept. And I think that is what people don't really think about that much also. You're providing a service, not just an idea, not just one product it's both. And when you think of it as that sort of package deal, it should hopefully encourage people listening to this out there to not be intimidated or not assuming that what they have isn't enough to offer anyone.
[00:42:26] Azhelle Wade: Thank you, Christian Castro. Thanks for being here today. Is there any final words of advice you'd like to share for people struggling to find creative ideas for toys or games out there in the world?
[00:42:38] Christian Castro: I we'll just say, keep your eyes open. Ears open, anything. I'm in the world of games. So like I watch sports and get game ideas. I play card games and watch game ideas. I, Always having a game night. When I traveled to a new city or a new continent. I love finding out like local games that are like specific to that region. Yeah. Yeah. And then games are everywhere games. Aren't just card games, video games, movies, like at the time of this recording, the number one show in Netflix is literally called squid game and games for everywhere. Just pay attention and use that as an inspiration to make some amazing idea.
[00:43:16] Azhelle Wade: Thank you, Christian Castro. And where can people connect with you if they want to connect with you?
[00:43:20] Christian Castro: I don't know. Just don't. I'm kidding. I'm not an influencer, so I don't have anything to follow, but I'm on LinkedIn, look for Christian Castro on Linkedin.
[00:43:29] Azhelle Wade: Nice I'll put the link in the show notes. You can connect with Christian Castro there. There's nothing else. Any last words?
[00:43:37] Christian Castro: I think that's it. I think of anything, I'll let you know and we'll feed it to the insider's We'll get the juicy stuff after hours.
[00:43:45] Azhelle Wade: Thank you so much, Christian, for coming on the show today, it was a pleasure having you back.
[00:43:49] Christian Castro: Thank you for having me. Happy Hispanic heritage month.
[00:43:51] Azhelle Wade: Happy Hispanic heritage month toy people.
[00:43:53] Well, there, you have it towed people. That was my interview with Christian Castro, design director of what do you meme? And in that conversation, I think we had some really great light bulb moments about theming versus actually developing play patterns. And Christian gave some great tips from his days at FAO, as well as his days as a design director for what do you mean as to what you can do to make your. Products more playable. And to know if you might have a game idea already existing in your everyday life.
[00:44:28] Now, before we wrap up today's episode, I do have a listener spotlight for today. And our listener spotlight is Nan say, Nan say says, sometimes you don't realize you need something until it's in front of you. That's exactly how I felt about the toy coach podcast. When I discovered it all topics and guests provide important discussions and insights into the toy industry that I didn't know or knew enough about. Thank you, toy coach. Well, you are super welcome Nan. Say, and I just want to let you know we've got exciting episodes coming for you down the pipeline. So please stay tuned.
[00:45:05] I appreciate your review and appreciate your five stars. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. If you love this podcast and you haven't already left a rating or review. What are you waiting for? I absolutely love reading them and it keeps me motivated to keep providing you valuable information week after week as always, thank you so much for spending time with me today. I know there are a ton of podcasts out there, so it means the world to me that you tune into this one until next week. I'll see you later toy people.
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